Steve no need to apologize, debating a subject that is near and deer (pun intended) to our hearts usually brings out our emotions... which shows we care. I am not a trophy hunter as some are, I to hunt mostly to fill my freezer and to enjoy my time outdoors. I just think it would be nice to let the deer get bigger so I can do so without having to fill all my tags. The area in tioga countywhere I hunt I only saw 2 deer this past season both were doe and I got a clean shot on one and put her in the freezer. I would like to put a 180 or 190 WEIGHT class deer in my freezer and that is why I would go for the AR's I mentioned.

John - I believe then our goals are similar - we just see different ways to get there.

You say you only saw 2 deer in your area. Do you feel the habitat would support more? Because if it will, then my idea that the herd should be managed to match numbers to habitat would provide you if the opportunity to see and harvest more deer. And with greater numbers would come seeing more bigger deer even if the % stayed the same.

Our numbers in much of CNY and western NY are higher then yours - hence we some some real slobs coming from here without playing with AR or other buck management schemes. May not be enough for some, but they are here to hunt and really mean something when taken. Again, I feel a herd managed for proper numbers provides all hunters with the realistic opportunities they seek.

Steve

The place I hunt is private owned 34 acres surrounded by 500 acres of private farm land as this is my first year there and based on what I have heard from the folks who live there, it was the worst deer season since the 60's. I am sure that it would support much more than what I saw based on the layout with fresh water plenty of food and places to hide from preditors. Only time will tell, I am going out small game hunting and now that we are getting snow I will look for tracks, just to see what if any survived. It is to bad the DEC guys aren't watching these talks.

THey do, but they rely on credibility developed over time with those they use as credible resources to decide whether to actually listen.

So, case in point, you are basing your opinions on heresay, and people upset, claiming the hunting on the land you are now hunting was worse than the 1960's? Really? Yet you have one season and you're jumping all over that, too?

As a question... Is this farm still in operation? DO they get DDP or DMAP from DEC? I would like to investigate habitat change, not just on this lands, but adjoining lands, too.

DoctariAFC To my knowledge there has been no changes, this is the first year I have hunted the property but I have been involved with the property IE scouting putting up stands etc.. for a couple of years, The property is surrounded on 3 sides by farm land which is not hunting in the off seasons and the people that I have spoken to live on the farms and own a camp nearby, the property owner where I hunt doesn't hunt but even she has noticed fewer deer in her maintained area (yard) based on her info as well as the others and my hunting experience this last season I would have to say there are less deer there. I was surprised while scouting the few tracks I saw. The reason for hunting the area at all was it is close to home and it was my wifes first time that was could hunt rifle together. As far as credible I think that the people who have been hunting that area since the 60's would know if the deer population has fallen off not just "here say".
What else does the DEC rely on besides what the people who live in the area tell them? They aren't out tracking the movements of the deer in every area in the state nor can they rely upon the number of deer reported, as not everyone does what is right and reports their kills.

The DEC uses their bowhunter observation diary program and other similar hunter observation diary programsfor info, and then the harvest reports and taxidermist/ processor surveys. I agree, the DEC doesn't use enough information, but, then again, some of the reason is the subjective nature many observations are veiled in.

Have the farmers been using the DMAP program at all? DDP? The DEC was issuing these tags like condoms to school kids during the first part of this decade, in an attempt to satisfy the Farm Bureau and their crop damage study done by Cornell.

The interesting thing is how the "new" strategy of maintaining a balanced herd will play out. Since we do not have habitat studies to examine concerning this area (natural succession - it has been 40+ years since the '60's, invasive plants pushing natural forage out, changes in water table due to development somewhere down the line, etc) we are really in the dark. We cannot kill all the deer, even with the slaughter policy of the early 2000s. Further, deer do move to better food sources.

I have seen the track scenario, quantity, change in Cattaugus County over the past several years, especially recently. But last season I saw more young deer than I ever have in any season, which bodes well for the future, at least in the area where I hunt hard.

All I can recommend is for you to get involved in the Deer Management Advisory Board in your area. This will give you insight into how the harvest goals are established, and give you the chance to speak for the area you hunt. But, bear in mind, observations can be very subjective. What you're experiencing in your particular pacth of ground isn't reflective of another patch of ground.

Ultimately, we must consider that working with nature is a tough business, and we have no control over nature, quite the opposite. Continue to press the DEC to further reduce the DMAP and DDP programs, and monitor the doe harvest goals like a hawk. Many BBs get harvested on DMP, DMAP and DDP. Our recruitment of new bucks is potentially being compromised through increased antlerless harvest.

I would recommend getting involved.

Ithink Steves got some sound and rational ideas and I believe that the
DEC is trying to match deer density to carrying capacity.That said,I think
they (the dec)are understaffed and misinformed about the herds numbers in many areas.At times they give out too many doe permits in areas ,
andtoo many nusiance permits . I would like to see someomefrom the DEC go to each farm that applies for nusiance permits and determine how many deer need removed, and charge the farmer some fee that would offset their costs.If the farmer is having thousands of dollars in damage
each year paying $100 or so forthe permit shouldn't be a problem. Plus it would stop people who just want to shoot deer. Also ,these farmers shouldbe askedto allow hunters ontheir land, but not forced to.
There are way too many people who do nothing but complain about the DEC and the job they do and won't even take five minutes to report their deer kills .Make sure you and all your buddies call in your kills.The DEC needs that info to get accurate counts. Volunteer to do be a gamespotter
for the DEC. They use bowhunters and alsohave a spotlighting program to
get counts of deer statewide.The more info they get the better for all of us and it won't take much of your time. I've been in the bowhunter program for ten years and my numbers show that in my area of western ny the deer population is down slightly but the number of bucks has been up for me three years in a row.
AR is not the answer to all things or for all people and I hope it never becomes law statewide. From the pictures I've seen of big bucks killed inNY this year we have quality now , maybe not everywhere but it is there.
We are not Illinois and I hope we never become like that. I like to shoot big bucks as much as anyone but dread the thought of all the private lands leased up and nowhere for the common man to hunt. Not everybody can layout $1000 for a lease yearly , and that would buy alot beef anyhow. I have five bucks scoring over 130 in the last ten years ,all on small patches of private land smaller than 60 acres.There has been3 bucks over 155 b&c taken in the same area,but they are rare, as they should be. If shooting "big" bucks was easy and a yearlyevent it wouldn't
bethe same rush as it is now.My hunting partners and I do pass on small bucks most of the time and yes we do worry that the next guy over will shoot them anyhow, but more and more guys see what results we get ,then they follow suit. Lead by example,not by pushing AR's on others who don't want or need it.
WOW ,I got long winded here but to sum it up ,I think if welet the DEC do it's job and we cooperate and help when we can, we will all be better
off for it. Hunt harder,hunt smarter,the deer are there and the good old days is NOW!

Will, I agree with much of what you are saying,practically all of it.The only thing that I don't agree with is everyone's liklihood to have the opportunity to see the types of bucks you are talking about.You are to be congratulated,killing 5 bucks over 130 is fantastic.I have hunted for a very long time and I hunt hard,I have never seen a 130 class buck in either 3c or 3a.Every once in a great while in these units a deep woods mountain hunter will kill a buck of that size or better,but it is extremely rare.Antler restrictions are now in place,we just completed are second season with them in place.I saw a lot more 2 1/2 year old bucks this year,I hope that translates in to more 3 1/2 year olds next year.I saw one buck this year that may have been 3 1/2.
I would like our management to be more unit specific,one size doesn't fit all,I am sure you work hard at your hunting,I feel confident that if those type of animals existed in any numbers in my units I would be having opportunities.It is getting to the point where I will likely travel more in search of better units that are within a reasonable driving distance.The unfortunate thing about that is convenience,being able to hunt close to home,or after work or before work,those things are not practical as hunting area's are farther away.
I have gained a great deal of knowledge through this discussion and I am not looking to impose my views on anyone,I do believe that I have a pretty good understanding as to what 3a and 3c are like.