deerfly,I think you may be misunderstanding my positiona little.Do Ithink we'll ever have more and bigger bucks than ever before?NO.Do I think the antlered harvest will ever return to the pre A/R HR days?NO.Do I think Pa will ever be considered a trophy state?NO WAY.I've never believed any of that nonsense.However,I do think the antlered harvest will start to trend upwards somewhat over the next few years and then level off again.How high I don't know.I also expect the habitat to recover more and I expect the deer will be in somewhat better shape and be able to sustain themselves better during bad winters.I also expect with a little work,I can expect to have a reasonable chance for me to be successful and my kids to be successful in a few years.I think we had to take a few steps backwards to move ahead and I believe we accomplished that mission.The ground is starting to level off and I'm fine with the current state of our opportunities.

Hunting is tougher now than it was 10 years ago.While I don't believe we ever had a b/d ratio problem(biologically speaking)it seems to be excellent now.I'm seeing as many buck now during archery season as I am does.Last yearI actually caught 3 times as many bucks on trail cams than I did adult doe.I see less deer on stand but as a bowhunter,it makes for a pretty intense rut.Icalled in and killed two bucks last year between Pa and Ohio and passed several more that came into grunts,rattling or the can.This is the first year I ever had that type of response.The bucks I killed last year weren't the biggest ones of my career but last year was definately one of the best and most fun years I ever had,even thoughI didn't see as many deer as I used to back in the 90's.I called 4 different bucks into range last year on the last saturday of October and killed one of them.Three days earlier I had one of the biggest bucks I've ever seen at 15 yards but he never gave me the angle I was looking for and he never knew I was there.To the best of my knowledge he's still out there and he'll be a true monster this year.

It's good to see deerfly back in action.

I fully understand what the carrying capacity is in all tyes of forest compositions.It's readily apparent that in many areas around here,there is very little for the deer to eat during winter.When an area gets cut,the deer quickly ravage it,destroying most of the good regeneration.That's starting to change now with the herd being reduced.I'm seeing many areas where the stump sprouts are actuallystarting to grow out of the deer's reach.I never saw that before.I live in an area that is extremly overbrowsed because no hunting has been allowed in over 40 years.Fortunately we're changing that this year butthe habitat is some of the worst I've ever seen.I can give you the statistics from our browse impact studies but I know you've already heard them.Basically,there is no browse except for some beech and it's severly impacted.We timbered over 100 acres the last two years and no regeneration is present in those cuts.None.We've done two browse impact surveys with PSU over the past two years to confirm that.This area is an extreme example because we have between 60-90 dpsm and it's been like that for decades.In any event,even with this years mild winter and excellent mast crop,I haven't seen a set of twin fawns yet.I've seen a bunch of fawns over the past week on this property and every one of them have been singles.Most of the does that are with fawns are obviously mature as well.The state of the habitat absolutely effects the health of the herd and recruitment.Again,this is an extreme example but probably not too far off of what many areas where like a decade or so ago.

I don't expect a well developed understory in pole timber but I do expect some regeneration to grow past the deer when an area is cut.Up until recently,that was hard to accomplish around here.I will admit that there are some exception in certain places.Overall though,the regeneration is much better recently.I also expect there to be somewhat of a mid level understory insaw timber.Wall to wall trees with nothing growing but ferns is not good habitat.I realize other factors contributed to this problem than just the deer but it still doesn't change the fact that the carrying capacity is poor.

Ihunt with a rifle and see deerduring that season as well.Every year I have to pass on a few bucks in rifle season because my tag is already filled.Most of my observations are based on what I see during hunting season.Too many factors influence deer movements during that time so I don't think you can fairly evaluate the situation.That's especially true if a guy is only in the woods one or two days.He really has no clue what's out there.My opinions are based on what I see on a year round basis since I live here and spend so much time in the woods.Winter time paints an especially interesting picture.Also,once the end of june rolls around,I have several cameras that I rotateall over the place.I have a pretty good idea ofwhat's out there.Obviously I can't tell you how many deer are in a certain area but I feel I can evalutate the population trends with some degree of accuracy.

It's yet to be seen what the long term effects of attrition will bring to 2G.You may be right about hunters not wanting to return.I don't want to see that happen but if it does,I imagine it will increase the opportunties for those that are willing to still hunt here.Pressure has been way down the last 2-3 three years and I imagine it will be even less this year.Less pressure will almost always equate to less sighting in rifle season.That's a fact that far too many huntersdiscount.

Generally a mature canopy will have some openings and there's more seed production.There are many shade tolerant browe species that should be present in the understory and I can show you some places where that is the case.I've also seen exclosure that were put up in a mature canopy that clearly shows signs of regneration.It's not like what you'd expect if the canopy was opened but itis very noticeable.

I have also observed regeneration occuring in areas despite having a fairly high deer density.You have to take into consideration what the surrounding habitat looks like though.Around here,the surrounding habitat is usually so poor,most clearcuts fail without fencing.You have to see it to believe it.Back east where there's more agriculture and the land is more fragmented,I have noticed decent regeneration despite a much larger deer herd.

To answer you're last question,I don't see many herbacious openings around here.Something usually grows but it isn't generally beneficial to the deer.Around here,I seealot of older tracts that have mostly beech and black birch growing.I guess that's something fire could help with.

I belong to lease that's owned by a timber company.It used to haveloads of deer on it andI used to hunt it when it was open to the public.Several years ago,the timber company started raping it and now it's almost all beech and black birch.The lease is 3100 acres and no doe hunting is allowed ,yet I rarely see deer in this area.In fact,I haven't hunted deer on this property since we leased it.I don't know the exact reason why there's few deer but I know they didn't all get shot off.Maybe they moved because the habitat is so poor and maybe the herd crashed somewhatbecause recruitment went down.I honestly don't know what the answer is but I know there aren't many deer there.Last year there were three deer taken off the property out of 125 guys.The habitat just stinks there so I only use it for turkey hunting.Now I'm not saying the deer did all this damage but the carrying capacity is way lower than it should be.That same timber company owns property about 5 miles away that's bordered by state forest.That area used to be absolutely loaded with deer.It got hit real hard after concurrent seasons,so hard that I actually stopped hunting there because I'd feel guilty shooting a deer there.Anyway,you can see the areas that they cut when the herd was still big.There's no stump sprouts and it's mostly beech now.The areas that they cut during the last couple of years since the herd has been reduced are unbelievable.The stump sprouts are over my head and the oak seedlings are almost too thick to walk through.It's incredible to see how much of a difference there is between the spots that were cut recently and the spots that were cut several years ago,even though it's the same property.Part of this area is state land and part is owned by a timber company.That land is leased but the guys that leased it,keep it open to the public.

Iwhole heardedly agree that we don't have an overbrowsing problem in every area of the state.I also believe the dd goals could be much higher in more fragmented areas.While I'm at it,I alsoagree that deer didn't cause all of these problems on their own.However,the habitat is very stressed around here for a variety of reason,not excluding deer.As a result,it takes far less deer to prevent regeneration once you cut an area.I didn't used to believe it myself but the exclosures and the results I'm seeing now make it indisputable.We have to work on other issures with the habitat but we needed to reduce the herd around here.,

It would depend on the size of the exclosure.While I agree that exclosures only tell you what happens at a 0 deer density,it does show that deer are the biggest variable underthose conditions.

There's no doubt in my mind that overbrowsed habitat can support more than 21 dpfsm.We've been doing for years so it must be possible.That still doesn't mean the habitat isideal for other animals or that the deer are as healthy as they could be.This definately has alot to do with protecting the future of commercially valuable timer.Why wouldn't we want to do that?

I think you're a little too hung up on oak.Deer browseon a much broader range of plants than just oak.Oak regeneration can be tricky enough without the deer.I'm simply describing regeneration of any preffered species when I mention regeneration.I also agree that increasing the size of the clearcuts and using sustainable forestry practices are just as big of issues as the deer.The problem is,alot of private land is high graded and timbered out of greed.That leaves lousy habitat and there's nothing the PGC can do about it.

I also agree that a typical sq/mile in Clearfiled county isn't the same as a sq/mile in northumberland county.I still believe they should be assigned different dd goals.I'm still with you there.

I think you'd have a different perspective on the situation in this part ofthe state if you spent some time out here.I think you'd find the habitat in many places to be a stark contrast to what you're used to.

I'd be upset if we had decent habitat and few deer.So far I've yet to see an area in this part of the state that had good habitat and no deer.

your right crazy horse. white oak acorns are what deer love most.other game too like squireals.

Ithink you're missing my point.I never said the land couldn't carry that many deer and the PGC actually admit's it on their website.Having as many deer as we once did in the state that the habitatwas in wasn't the optimal situation for the deer,other wildlife or the tree.A balance needs to be found.The deer will still survive and reproduce even if the habitat is poor.However,a couple rough winters will crash the population and that's exactly what happened in many remote areas.Alot of these area have few deer yet they're far too remote and rugged for the hunters to have had that kind of an impact on them.I hunt a few areas where I never eversee another hunter.Five years ago there were alot of deer,now there's very few.What happened to them?Bears and coyotes didn't suddenlykill them all and hunters sure as heck didn't.

[/align][align=right][/align][align=left]I have seen winterkilled deer here in NJ, so no doubt it happens in PA. NO DOUBT. [/align][align=left][/align][align=left]Doug, you make some great points.[/align]

In fact, would not these (expensive) exclosures been the best place to IMPROVE the habitat by spiking these areas with DESIRED shrubs and trees that mignt best benefit wildlife and especially GAME? Instead these exclosures were left to regenerate only what was already there.

In the case dealing with exclosures, the word I M P R O V E M E N T WAS ignored.