Germain,there's not pockets of deer around here.There's pockets of better habitat and that's where you find the deer.With the exception of the tornado area,that area has some of the worst habitat around.Even the Punxsy hunt ground is terrible.I don't understand how you can even argue with that.I'm not sure what you mean by the old washed out bridge.I agree that there were more deer in Parker dam before HR started.There were alot more but then we had the winters of 2003 and 2004.Last year I saw more deer in there than I did the year before.In fact I didn't see a single deer in there during the 2004 bear season.Hunters didn't do that.There's no way they could kill that many deer.It's way too thick.Besides,I could count the number of people on one hand that i've seen in there during bear and deer season.They all hunt the open woods where the deer aren't.

I've never said there aren't areas with very few deer.There are relatively large areas with few deer but the habitat stinks.It amazes me that people actually hunt in these areas and then complain about seeing no deer.Why would someone hunt where they scouted and saw no sign?

You're misunderstanding what I said.Deer can still survive and reproduce to a certain degree in poor habitat.It's been happening for years.The herd,for all intensive purposes crashed around here after those winters and now the deer are starting to comeback after two mild winters.There's no doubt about because some of these areas recieve very little hunting pressure,yet there are far fewer deer than there used to be.

The situation in Treasure lake in unique.First of all,they have the landscaping from 1700 houses to browse on all winter and many people feed the deer.We still lost deer that winter in Treasure lakeand recruitment was no doubt effected.I have no doubt that we have less deer today than we did just 5 years ago.The deer came out of winter in better shape than usual this year but I've only seen one set of twins.It's too early to tell yet because most fawns aren't traveling with their mothers on a regular basis.However,I'm willing to bet that few does will have twins and alot of does won't have any.Seventy five percent of this property had zero regnerationeven though over 100 acres were logged last year.The deer survive well during a year with a good mast crop.Otherwise,they live offthe landscaping and they're not picky at what they eat.They even eat holly and rhodedendrum.It's far from an optimal situation for the deer,trees or other wildlife.

Timbering has taken place in the last few years on the Punxy club grounds. All I know is what I've seen from the road as I drive through on my way to our camp. I don't know if any clearcutting took place or not. I DO know that I've seen dumptruck loads of earcorn being hauled in there on a regular basis in the fall in past years. Seems like baiting, to me. FLIR images at this location would be worthless, as it would indicate an inflated number of DPSM.

The FLIR results should be out soon.Overall,district 9 averaged out to 16 dpsm.Some areas had no deer and some areas showed 100 dpsm.Obviously these deer were simply herded up in an area with food and cover.It was no where near the Punxy hunt club though.Actually it was on the other side of the interstate.I asked about certain locations like the tornado area and the area that was clearcut and fenced on top of Rockton mountain.I believe the tornado area had right around 20 dpsm and the area where they took the fence down on rockton mountain did have some deer but I'm not sure of the number.There's no reason for deer to winter over in most of that area.

Doug,I can't figure out why people hunt deer where there's no sign either.That's why I don't waste my time hunting in the Mosh.ST forest.Possibly if I lived in the area and had the time to scout alot I might just to enjoy the big woods hunt.Other then that I'll stick to some bear and turkey hunting in there.
The washed out bridge road is actually blackwell RD I think.They have rebuilt the bridge.
I won't argue with you that the habitat stinks in areas like Tyler RD but yet the logging in there has been few and far between.
I'm wondering why they did the FLIR over the Rockton area you're talking about because if I'm not mistaken that's past the state forest boundry and well into private land.

Deerfly.The high antlerless harvests wereabsolutely positively reducing the herd at a steady rate.The bottom fell after the winters of 2003 and 2004 though and now the herd is coming back.I never discounted the effect the harvests had on our deer except in the most remote and hard to access areas.

Germain,the habitat is poor around Blackwell road.They have timbered a bunch of areas near tyler road but they fence all the cuts.Moshannon state forest wraps behind Mitch's and goes almostall the way to Anderson creek.There is alot of private land that borders that area but most of it is not posted.

no sinister theroy as you said, i am only pointing out that pgc /dcnr are releasing ,some we catch like i did on those birds, others we dont.my point is, they are spending tons of money on birds, bugs. lizards, tourism but nothing for greatest animal [deer] in history of this country.we will soon be trading in our guns for cameras.i really believe that deer huntringwill be something we only have memories of.

doug, not being smart to you but could you think on this a little. WHY DO I HAVE DEER ON MY PRIVATE LAND NEXT TO STATE FORESTLAND AND HABITAT IS SAME.

The PGC is responsible for the management of all animals in this state.For you to say that they spend no money on deershows how clueless you really are.They've done numerous studies over the past several years and they're doing some as I type this,some in your area.They also spend money on habitat improvements which benefits the deer as well as other wildlife.You also have to remember that different organizations and consevancies donate alot of the money used for these projects.What more would you like them to do with their limited budget?

Why do you have deer on your property?I don't know.How many deer are there and how much property do you own?I thought the poachers snuck on your property and killed them all.Isn't that what you posted about a week ago?In order for their to be a significant difference between the number of deer on your property and state property,you'd have to control hundreds of acres,even if you did significant habitat improvements.I would think a guy like you who's always slamming the PGC for their lack of effort on the habitat would have taken it upon yourself to do significant work on your land.How much of your property is food plots and how much clearcutting have you done?Do you feed the deer?

I find it extremely hard to believe that there's no deer on the state forest land if the habitat is good.We have plenty of deer on the state game lands around here because the habitat is better.Some of the state forest land also has alot of deer where the habitat is better.There's also places on the state forest land where you'd be lucky to cut a track but the habitat is so bad,I don't know why a deer would be there or why anyone would bother hunting there.We have just as much public land as you do and most likely just as much pressure.In fact we probably get more even pressure because the terrain around here is not nearly as rough as it is in the sproul.On top of that,it's hard to get more than a mile of the road in most places because we have so many state forest roads.We get hit hard around here,we have alot of bears and coyotes yet we still have plenty of deer.

You can't tell me all of the Sproul gets hunted hard.I don't have complete faith in the hunter movement study that they did there because it's not a good example of what happens accross the whole state.It did show that in the sproul,vast areas essentially go unhuntedso the hunters aren't controlling the herd,even though it's been declining.No,I'm not saying hunters are lazy or worthlesss in this case.I drive through that area several times a year and I'd be reluctant to travel back in several of those huge steep ravines to drag a doe out.It does show that hunters aren't having the biggest impact on the declining herd in that area.

DougE did you hear from Crazy Horse? He sure is quiet, I guess he thought he had there!!