"Doug", it's not what I've lost , it's what the PGC has lost, and that is the ability to manage properly. The fact is I've been on and inside a few large enclosures on State Game lands.

The deer numbers have been brought downto very minimal numberson a great many Game lands across the state. There most certainly are exclosures on Game lands. This presents an outstanding opportunity to enhance the habitat under the present conditions. The agency is not taking advantage of this opportunity to improve habitat and one has to ask WHY NOT?
The fact is, our Game lands are managed primarily for saw timber. The chief topic concerning the forest on SGL is Red Oak regeneration. That's saw timber.

I may have lost it, but it appears that you never had it. Try rationalizing your rationalizations.

SOMEBODY PLEASE PUT THIS THREAD TO REST and end the pi$$ing contest.

I never said there weren't fences on SGL's.Most of the ones that where erected and left standing were done for experimental and educational purposes.In general if they put a fence up,they take it down as soon as the regeneration gets a foothold which usually takes a few years.

PaGobbler,yes I do know of a few fences that were put up and never cut.DCNR has been fencing alot of the timber sales prior to being cut so they can get some advanced regeneration ahead of time.There are also some fences that were erected under a heavy canopy in Elk county.In fact,there's ahabitat tour coming up in two weeks in that area.They covered all three scenarios you mentioned.In fact they have many examples.In particular,They cut an area during the early nineties.The clearcut turned into a meadow from all ofthe over browsing so 6 years later they decided to put up a series of small 20'x20'exclosures.Those exclosures are choked with new growth while the outside is still nothing but grasses and weeds.Adjacent to this area is an exclosure put up under a mature canopy.It's not nearly as thick as the areas that were cut but there is substantial new growth in the exclosure that isn't present outside.This is a tour worth taking and I'll guarantee that it will change your outlook on the situation.If you can't make it that weekend,I'd be more than glad to show you this area and may others some other time.

Crazy horse,how wrong you are about me.Just5 or 6years ago,I was in the dark as much as you are now.I started to hate the PGC and I really despised DCNR.I always agreed we had too mnay deer and hada habitat problem butI thought they wanted to go to far with herd reductions.As a result,I set out to prove all the experts wrong.I researched this subject to a level of ridiculous obsession.I attended habitat tours and got involved with some local deer management efforts.I metwith a couple nationally renowned experts and got to know and became friends withseveral more foresters from DCNR,the PGC,US FORESTS SERVICEand PSU.I fought this all the way but I still kept an open mind because I figured that I had no reason to bitch unless I had all the facts.Before long, I realized how wrong I was.I also realized that everyone of these people were sportsman first.None of them want to kill all the deer or ruin hunting for the future.They simply understand the problems we face in this part of Pa and realize the sacrifices we have to make in order to turn this around for the long term benefit of everyone and everything involved.They have reams of evidence and facts that are indisputable.The naysayers and PGC haters have nothing.

Show me one piece of evidence and explain how the PGC is primarily managing our game lands for the production of red oak.That's nothing but a mistatement of the truth and you and nobody else has any proof to back that statement up.I see all types of habitat improvements around here and none of them center around red oak production.If they really wanted to manage the game lands as a cash crop,they'd manage them for black cherry.It's generally worth more,it's easy to regenerate andit's not a preffered browse species.Besides,the value of red oak is way down at this time.

PGC has close close to 5800 acres in 169 seperate fenced enclosures.

doug, again i never said psu/pgc released cougars.i do believe that penn state is behind a lot of things that we are not aware of. they released FISCHERS.they did publicize that. i was there and saw release. now, fischers are killing grouse and rabbits and fawns.yes, doug, fischers do kill FAWNS. will penn state tell us that? noooooooooooo.doug, did you know we traded turkeys for hawks? i bet you did not know that!25 years ago pgc started trapping our bigturkeys out of 2g. did they tell us or publicize it.nooooooooo.our president of our sportsmen club saw it .so, yes, game is traded for other game.same with eagles, you think they just flew into pa.well, i just end it on that.i like info you put on here, interesting but i cant believe any deer are starving.years ago i would find dead deer along creeks as they will go there to die .not 1 ever starved ,all were shot and wounded.only time i ever saw dead deer was in ice storm of around 1977/1978 area. but they slipped and fell and broke their backs.with coyotes, i believe they were brought into pa. who did it, i cant prove it but remember, DCNR is out to get rid of deer.coyotes are killing fawns. penn state even said that one but added bears.yes, i dont cut deer open and look at bone but i rolled many deer over in last 50 years and all were shot and died along creeks.in last 10 years i dont believe i found over 2 dead deer along creeks. years ago, a lot were found shot. why, because years ago there was lots of deer and if one was wounded, most did not trail it to far as lots of deer were available.TODAY, if hunter shoots , he or she trails it do to LACK of deer.so, now you heard sprouls bedtime stories. hope we all keep adding ourinfo and continue this great site we areon.huntingnet.com is best site.take it easy.

Sproulman,Have you seen a fisher kill a fawn?I'm surePSU wouldn't hide that fact if fishers did in fact kill some fawns in their fawn study.What would they have to gain?It is possible?I'd don't know but I've seen no evidence showing that fishers are having a big impact on fawn mortality.

Did the president of your sportsman's club seeing them actually trading the turkeys for hawks?I have no doubt that he saw them trapping turkeys because the trap and transfer program was a big endeavor.No I don't believe they traded them for hawks.First,we always had plenty of hawks and second,why would they do it?Where's your evidence?Hearsay doesn't count.

Deer don't always go to water to die.None of the 17+ deer I found in the spring of 2004 was near water.Again,it isn't just the deer that dies that had an effect.It was the drop in the recrutment that had the biggest effect.Coyotes and bears both prey on fawns and no one is denying that.that study also clearly showed that fawn mortality from predators was clearly thehighest where the habitat was the poorest.

I don't buy your theory about hunters behaving like slobs and not trailing deer when the population was highest.

You did in fact say that you felt PSU and/or the PGC was behind releasing cougars.

If someone did bring coyotes into Pa,who brought them into every other state since they now inhabitat every one of the lower 48 states?

Doug,
Someone is playing with you. This stuff is too far off for any reasonable person to believe.

I know Todd but but some of this dribble is entertaining.I know one thing,I'm glad I didn't huntin Clinton county back when the primary method of grouse hunting was by road hunting and guys didn't bother to trail wounded deer.I guess guys were afraid to get out of their vehicle in fear ofgetting attacked by a mountain lion.

I just can't believe how bad things are getting in some places.There's no deer because the PGC needed to make money by selling more tags.On top of that,they stocked coyotes and mountain lions to kill al the deer that hunters couldn't kill.The small game hunting is poor because that dam PGC went and trapped out all of our turkeys to trade for hawks and eagles.Nowwe don't have enough rabbits and grouse,Since roadhunting is too hard now,guys actually have to get out and walk through some brush.Thank goodness there's still porkypines out there or the fishers than PSU stocked would be starving for sure.

This part of 2G must be some sort of a mecca.We actually have deer and grouse,despite all the coyotes,doe tags fishers and hawks.It must be a different division of the PGC that manages this part of 2G.

pa.3,i am trying to help doug not be smart with him.17 dead deer from starving.NO WAY HE WILL EVER CONVINCE ME THAT HAPPENED.and not in these winters we are having.i think as you, someone is playing mind games with him.sadly,some are good at doing just that. lucky he has us here to help him.

doug,be calm.dont lose you cool.you are welcome to your opinion,it just is not what we see. you say experts told you, well, i trust the hunter that has been in woods, hunting, feeding deer, fishing,trapping etc as much or even more than a person with a degree. we all got our degrees from being in woods and being a sportsman.50 or 60 or 70 years at it, i will listen to that person as much or more than a psu grad.as you see, many of us came from OLD SCHOOL.sadly, the pgc commissioners think same way as you are now thinking. hey, mrs palone says, hunters, hope they dont show up for meeting. that is the THINKING now. we hunters dont know a thing. we are not psu grads.i guess we are BORING and they dont want to hear what we say.again, dont be so mad at me because i tell TRUTH of what was and is.hunting is poor because PGC and dcnr dont want the deer.they are controlling it, not us.go to states were same programs of getting rid of deer are in effect before us here in pa. they hardly have deer to hunt. they used to until the doe reduction permits went out. now, if they see a doe ,its big thing.they are losing hunters. but gaining hikers, bird watchers, 4 wheelers, elk watchers,but no HUNTERS. times are changing and it seems we are going to be at losing end of stick.i see it, i read it, and cant stop it. you could give a kid the whole year to hunt deer and without deer to hunt, he or she wont.thats our future and it does not look good.this is first year that my neighbors have not bought a fishing lic. and are not buying a hunting license. dcnr is drollling at this. no money and pgc will not exist.they will get all that land the pgc has now.their drolling.anyhow, i talked to much here. dont get all bent out of shape because you did not know people road hunted,that turkeys were trapped and traded,fischers kill fawns,that coyotes were released, that cougars were too,that eagles just flew in all over.someone released those above, if you think pgc did it,i dont know. but someone did it .remember, dcnr wants deer GONE.have a nice day!