Who's going to pay for all these shrubs and trees along with the labor involved with planting them?You're missing the point.If we can't get natural regeneration,we have too many deer.Besides,if you plant a few trees and shrubs in depleted habitat,the deer will eat them before they have a chance to grow.

We have exclosures all over the place around here.Yes,some are in fact, total failures with nothing but non-prefered species growing in them.Most however,have a variety of beneficial,prefered browse species growing well.

You keep reaching and you want to blame the PGC for everything.Who is going to fund all of this habitat work and how long will it take to make a difference?

doug,its hunters that havekilled deer,not habitat.hunters of years ago went HUNTING,they managed herds in their hunting areas.now,hunters go KILLING, not HUNTING anymore or they would not shoot a doe or fawn as there are not many left.this did not just happen in last 5 years, its been happening from 1980 or so.only thing that stopped the situation we have now in last 5 years is doe permits were restricted or you would have seen this 20 years ago.no one is saying habitat is good,only its not habitat that is causing the reduction of deer. no deer have starved here in 2g in my memory of 50 years hunting. ice storm in around 1978 was bad because deer could not stand up on hillsides, but they did not strave.thats why when someone says they saw 5 starved deer last year ,with winters we are having and acorns etc. I CANT BELIEVE IT.we had bad winters years ago , not now.

bionicrooster,hello, in 50 years here in the toughest winter area of pa.wmu 2g, not once, not 1 time did i see a starved deer. winters were a heck of a lot worst than now.

Sproulman, I don't know what to tell you. You believe the PGC is releasing hawks and cougars, but you don't believe in winterkill among deer herds?

bionicrooster, you are welcome to your opinion.only when you hear what is truth, maybe, just maybe you are lucky to hear it not what is not true.i am not in NEW JERSEY,i dont know what is TRUTH there in last 50 years. rest assured , you are hearing TRUTH of what is fact here in wmu 2g of pa.as for hawks, no doubt they were released.as for cougars, cougar expert here in state college, pa said they WERE RELEASED. some migrated in to pa also. i or him never said it was PGC that did it on cougars.if you dont believe they are here in pa. then you also believe that deer are starving. hope you can see the TRUTH. take care

"Who's going to pay for all these shrubs and trees along with the labor involved with planting them?"

Answer: The same agency that paid for the exclosure, using the same funding, the $6.25 that comes from each license sold.

What you don't seem to be able to comprehend is that managing to regenerate only what previously existed is not IMPROVEMENT. Would you buy an automobile that did not have an airconditioner? How about one without remote entry? Does your car still have a cerburator?
My guess is that you would buy a car with all the latest technilogical advancements and IMPROVEMENTS. So why do you accept less from the Game Commission when it comes to habitat?

Sproulman,you did in fact say that you believed PSU and the PGC were releasing mountain lions.Releasing hawks?where would they get them and why would they do that?Are they trying to starve the coyotes that you think they planted?I have several credible people that saw the winterkilled deer.Dave Jackson from PSU was with me the one day when we found five.We busted open the femurs on at least three of them and the bone marrow was bright pink.That means malnutrition played a role in their demise.I really don't care if you believe me or not.

Crazy horse,you're starting to lose it.The vast majority of exclosures are on state forest land where the PGC has no control over the state of the habitat.The $6.25 that's slated for habitat improvements isn't for work on state forest land and the PGC did not allocate any money for DCNR to erect fences to protect their tres.I think you keep forgetting that state forests and state game lands are managed for two entirely different reasons.When they do put up exclosures on SGL's they only do it for a a few years so the regeneration gets a foothold.The fences are then taken down so all wildlife can benefit,including the deer.Planting trees and shrubs in depleted habitat would be a waste of money because the deer will simply ravage what's being planted.The deer herd needed to be brought down first and the surrounding habitat fixed.I don't know why you think our native browse species aren't valuable for browse.There are tons of different preferred browse species that are growing like crazy inside of these exclosures,yet thery're no where to be found outside of the fences.That tells most rationally thinking people that the deer are the primary cause for the lack of regeneration in these areas.Hobblebush is an excellent shade tolerant preferred browse species that has almost been eliminated from Pa by the deer.Today it's starting to come back inmany exclosures and even outside of some fences in the Alleghany national forest now that the deer herd is down.At one time it was a prevelant species.What happened to it and why is it showing up in exclosures?There's exclosures all over the place within a few miles of my house.The difference inside vs outside is so dramatic that any rationally thinking person can't deny the damage that the deer have done.It's so obvious that there's really no argumenet.It's not the acid rain because the same rain falls inside the fence as it does outside.The only variable being controlled is the deer.

Sproul, I believe that you never found a winterkilled deer, as most that die won't die til february or march, when many people aren't in the woods much. That is not taking into account the does that are weakened enough throughout the winter that they are unsuccessful in birthing. My only point is that if you don't believe deer can die during a winter in PA I think most biologists would disagree. Perhaps it is more of a question of what percentage of deer succumb to the winter? As for the hawks, I really fail to see why the PGC would spend the money on a hawk releasing program, then hide it from the public?

While there was no doubt winterkill in 2003 and 2004,it's the decreased recruitment rate that's readily apparent.Every spring the PGC does winter mortality surveys where they walk stream bottoms looking for dead deer.This is used mainly to gauge the severity of winterkill fromm year to year.It's not used to determine the total amount of winterkill.regardless,they did find deer that died of starvation those winters.If deer were dieing from starvation,recruitment was definately affected.

DougE, when you say a few years then taken down around how many are you talking about?
the reason i ask is i know of a few fences thats been up for a lot of years fact i know of one thats been up over 10 years now on game lands.
one more question for you since im not that far from you, do you happen to know of any areas that they fenced in w/o cutting it first. i would love to see one of those. i also would like to see 3 tests in about the same area one being a cut then fenced in, then another cut and no fence, and another no cut and fenced.