Healthy herd myth
08-04-2007 | 06:47 AM
#181
Boone & Crockett
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 11,682
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From: Michigan/Ohio
RE: Healthy herd myth
ORIGINAL: atlasman
What are you basing IA and ILL getting better on?? More bigger deer being shot??
There is ABSOLUTELY no way anyone can say that taking a mature male in the prime of his life out of a wild herd is a good thing for the overall health structure.
PURE BS................only spoken by someone who selfishly wants to take that male out and feels the need to justify it to others.
ORIGINAL: Germ
If your theory was correct then deer herd in Iowa and ILL would be getting worst. Why are they getting better? More big deer are shot every year.
If your theory was correct then deer herd in Iowa and ILL would be getting worst. Why are they getting better? More big deer are shot every year.
There is ABSOLUTELY no way anyone can say that taking a mature male in the prime of his life out of a wild herd is a good thing for the overall health structure.
PURE BS................only spoken by someone who selfishly wants to take that male out and feels the need to justify it to others.
08-04-2007 | 06:51 AM
#182
Boone & Crockett
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 11,682
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From: Michigan/Ohio
RE: Healthy herd myth
You know the answer..........and so does everyone else. I don't blame you for avoiding it 
Atlas if deer did not have antlers they would be a deemed a nusance animal and destroyed.
If antlers do not mean so that much why did you mount yours?
08-04-2007 | 06:58 AM
#183
Boone & Crockett
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 11,682
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From: Michigan/Ohio
RE: Healthy herd myth
ORIGINAL: atlasman
ORIGINAL: Germ
No I work with them, you should try it. Working with DNR got me Turkeys on our farm.
Is that working with them or selling out??
ORIGINAL: Germ
No I work with them, you should try it. Working with DNR got me Turkeys on our farm.
Is that working with them or selling out??
Was Fantasy Land your favorite show? Here is my neighbor 10 years ago there was not a turkey in my county. Now there is over 1000. See what happens when you're not afraid
Shot on our farm 25 lb bird. Jack is president of a N-W-T-F chapter here. He has worked hard to get Turkeys population to huntible numbers here in my county.
Yes, but have you mounted any other deer?
Yes.
Yes.
If you want logical comparisons I will address them, but keep living in Fantasy land with Tatoo and all your doing is wasting space on HNI servers
08-04-2007 | 07:12 AM
#184
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,668
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From: NY
RE: Healthy herd myth
ORIGINAL: SteveBNy
Here in 7j (no AR), I saw at least 12 bucks w/3 per side at least that where obviously 1 1/2 yo. My hunting partner saw even more. 75% plus of our sitings. Under the AR in 3c & j, all would meet the criteria of legal. How would targeting them make the herd "healthy here?
Supposedly QDMA is not about antler size, but a balanced collection of conditions that must bemet for in order to achieve a healthy herd - older (not bigger racked) bucks is claimed to be a side benefit and not the goal in any way. Why would QDMA members be the driving force behind a method of management whose goal is not the one claimed to be the reason for QDMA practise?
To me this perfectly supports Atlas's claim that (at least here in NY), the small but vocal push for mandatory AR (by mainly QDMA members) is nothing more then an attempt to mandate TM and hide it as QDM.
Steve
From a personal perspective I saw more 2.5 year old year old bucks in last years archery season than ever before,I saw 10 racked bucks,that would have made the three on a side criteria.I know it is working.
The gentleman who was the driving force behind the introduction of it is a friend and fellow QDMA member.
To me this perfectly supports Atlas's claim that (at least here in NY), the small but vocal push for mandatory AR (by mainly QDMA members) is nothing more then an attempt to mandate TM and hide it as QDM.
Steve
Once again..................100% spot on.
08-04-2007 | 07:14 AM
#185
Boone & Crockett
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 11,682
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From: Michigan/Ohio
RE: Healthy herd myth
ORIGINAL: SteveBNy
Here in 7j (no AR), I saw at least 12 bucks w/3 per side at least that where obviously 1 1/2 yo. My hunting partner saw even more. 75% plus of our sitings. Under the AR in 3c & j, all would meet the criteria of legal. How would targeting them make the herd "healthy here?
Supposedly QDMA is not about antler size, but a balanced collection of conditions that must bemet for in order to achieve a healthy herd - older (not bigger racked) bucks is claimed to be a side benefit and not the goal in any way. Why would QDMA members be the driving force behind a method of management whose goal is not the one claimed to be the reason for QDMA practise?
To me this perfectly supports Atlas's claim that (at least here in NY), the small but vocal push for mandatory AR (by mainly QDMA members) is nothing more then an attempt to mandate TM and hide it as QDM.
Steve
From a personal perspective I saw more 2.5 year old year old bucks in last years archery season than ever before,I saw 10 racked bucks,that would have made the three on a side criteria.I know it is working.
The gentleman who was the driving force behind the introduction of it is a friend and fellow QDMA member.
To me this perfectly supports Atlas's claim that (at least here in NY), the small but vocal push for mandatory AR (by mainly QDMA members) is nothing more then an attempt to mandate TM and hide it as QDM.
Steve
I can only speak of MI, but when it got a little tough in Northern MI and UP the hunters left. Seems to be tough in NY in spots now and big suprise hunters are whining. You should here the MI guys
Lets be honest both groups want to make it easier for them. Which is why we have this bickering, and it is what keeps Atlas up at night
Do a little reading on QDM. It does not mean shoot a doe, sometimes it does not. The biggest issue with QDM IMO is guys trying to tell others how to practice it with no clue. It is not a set rule, it looks at the area in question and you go from there. It may be you do not shoot any does.
From what i know AR have nothing to do with QDM
08-04-2007 | 07:18 AM
#187
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,668
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From: NY
RE: Healthy herd myth
ORIGINAL: tsoc
From a personal perspective I saw more 2.5 year old year old bucks in last years archery season than ever before,I saw 10 racked bucks,that would have made the three on a side criteria.I know it is working.
From a personal perspective I saw more 2.5 year old year old bucks in last years archery season than ever before,I saw 10 racked bucks,that would have made the three on a side criteria.I know it is working.
Told ya Germ...........sooner or later the REAL reason for TDM/QDM preaching is revealed. You just have to give 'em enough time and eventually they all get back to this point.
08-04-2007 | 07:24 AM
#188
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,668
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From: NY
RE: Healthy herd myth
ORIGINAL: mlo31351270
Maybe you should take a walk in the woods during a bad NY winter. During the winter of 2003 I found 39 dead butterballs, the following winter I found 17. One deer was dead and still standing up in the deep snow. Maybe some of you guys should get out a little more.
And you're right about the NY deer Atlas. They're butter ball fat and weigh more at a year and a half than most of those "Well Managed" deer in Texas at 4 or 5. They might look a little beat up after10 or 11 feet of snow in the winter but they bounce right back.
EXACTLY what I mean when I say that NY (and some NY'ers) try to micromanage the state based on poor stats. So what if you had 50 deer die??.........maybe the state gave out plenty of tags already in your area and they went unfilled.............maybe there were too many deer and mother nature took care of that (like she ALWAYS will). What does it matter??? Small isolated pockets of information are of no use to manage a state.
Should a red flag go up in your area??...........maybe..........but again, there are so many variables involved it's hard to even say that for sure.
Too many guys jump to conclusions based on reflex emotions. It's just not a sound way to manage a large area. Every town will hold a guy with a different story, and you end up chasing your tail.
08-04-2007 | 07:26 AM
#189
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,668
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From: NY
RE: Healthy herd myth
ORIGINAL: Germ
Atlas that is just the way it is. Keep twisting though. Tatoo can see you coming. "The plane The plane"
ORIGINAL: atlasman
What are you basing IA and ILL getting better on?? More bigger deer being shot??
There is ABSOLUTELY no way anyone can say that taking a mature male in the prime of his life out of a wild herd is a good thing for the overall health structure.
PURE BS................only spoken by someone who selfishly wants to take that male out and feels the need to justify it to others.
ORIGINAL: Germ
If your theory was correct then deer herd in Iowa and ILL would be getting worst. Why are they getting better? More big deer are shot every year.
If your theory was correct then deer herd in Iowa and ILL would be getting worst. Why are they getting better? More big deer are shot every year.
There is ABSOLUTELY no way anyone can say that taking a mature male in the prime of his life out of a wild herd is a good thing for the overall health structure.
PURE BS................only spoken by someone who selfishly wants to take that male out and feels the need to justify it to others.
Please explain how taking a dominant alpha male out of a wild herd of animals helps THEM.
08-04-2007 | 07:27 AM
#190
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,668
Likes: 0
From: NY
RE: Healthy herd myth
ORIGINAL: Germ
D-e-e-r hunter,
Atlas if deer did not have antlers they would be a deemed a nusance animal and destroyed.
If antlers do not mean so that much why did you mount yours?
You know the answer..........and so does everyone else. I don't blame you for avoiding it
Atlas if deer did not have antlers they would be a deemed a nusance animal and destroyed.
If antlers do not mean so that much why did you mount yours?
Wow............you sure are dancing around that question
It's OK buddy..............everyone knows the answer...........and why you are avoiding it