Healthy herd myth
08-03-2007 | 09:54 PM
#161
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,102
Likes: 0
RE: Healthy herd myth
The contention that if there are less big deer,the accomplishment in taking one will be all the greater is an interesting one.Or that thesephantom animals are out there but some of us are not skilled enough to find them.Both of these lines of thinking are absurd! Big bucks leave clues to their existence,big rubs,big tracks,sightings etc..Yes big bucks are hard to kill but they are not mystical,if they are there you or someone else will see them.The deer kill statistics in my part of Ulster County New York run about 2 bucks per square mile,roughly 80% to 85% of those bucks are 1.5 years old.The odds of killing a 3.5 year old buck are tremendously low,because they don't exist in any kind of reasonableby my standard numbers.
I don't want to stack 1.5 year old bucks like cord wood and every so often reminice about the 16 inch 8 pointer I shot in 1989.
At least one in every three years my buck tag remains unfilled in NY state,so who is less selfish,me the selective buck hunter or the hunter who every year kills multiple 1.5 year old bucks while letting doe tags go unfilled? Who has the Horn Porn and who doesn't?Last I knew male and female deer taste alike!
I don't ever expect that I will convert any one to a different way of thinking.I will say that it is more likely that hunters like myself create more opportunity for younger or inexperienced hunters by letting young bucks walk,we also increase the likelyhood that someone other than ourselves will kill an older buck by letting young bucks walk.So again who is more selfish?
Some of this crap is so obvious a blind man can see through it! For anyone who has a passion about an endeavor it is assumed that as time goes by and experience is gained that a person would want to continue to grow and evolve in the challenges that they hold themselves to.It is easy for a hunter with any kind of experience to consistently kill 1.5 year old bucks,they are the most naive,unaware segment of the deer herd.Where the heck is the challenge in that!
I know one thing for sure any experienced hunter who would pursue 1.5 year old bucks with intention will never hunt with me! If they want to hit from the ladies tee,they aren't going to do it with me!
I don't want to stack 1.5 year old bucks like cord wood and every so often reminice about the 16 inch 8 pointer I shot in 1989.
At least one in every three years my buck tag remains unfilled in NY state,so who is less selfish,me the selective buck hunter or the hunter who every year kills multiple 1.5 year old bucks while letting doe tags go unfilled? Who has the Horn Porn and who doesn't?Last I knew male and female deer taste alike!
I don't ever expect that I will convert any one to a different way of thinking.I will say that it is more likely that hunters like myself create more opportunity for younger or inexperienced hunters by letting young bucks walk,we also increase the likelyhood that someone other than ourselves will kill an older buck by letting young bucks walk.So again who is more selfish?
Some of this crap is so obvious a blind man can see through it! For anyone who has a passion about an endeavor it is assumed that as time goes by and experience is gained that a person would want to continue to grow and evolve in the challenges that they hold themselves to.It is easy for a hunter with any kind of experience to consistently kill 1.5 year old bucks,they are the most naive,unaware segment of the deer herd.Where the heck is the challenge in that!
I know one thing for sure any experienced hunter who would pursue 1.5 year old bucks with intention will never hunt with me! If they want to hit from the ladies tee,they aren't going to do it with me!
08-03-2007 | 09:59 PM
#162
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,668
Likes: 0
From: NY
RE: Healthy herd myth
ORIGINAL: Germ
If your theory was correct then deer herd in Iowa and ILL would be getting worst. Why are they getting better? More big deer are shot every year.
If your theory was correct then deer herd in Iowa and ILL would be getting worst. Why are they getting better? More big deer are shot every year.
There is ABSOLUTELY no way anyone can say that taking a mature male in the prime of his life out of a wild herd is a good thing for the overall health structure.
PURE BS................only spoken by someone who selfishly wants to take that male out and feels the need to justify it to others.
08-03-2007 | 10:05 PM
#163
Boone & Crockett
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 19,137
Likes: 0
RE: Healthy herd myth
know one thing for sure any experienced hunter who would pursue 1.5 year old bucks with intention will never hunt with me! If they want to hit from the ladies tee,they aren't going to do it with me!
[align=right]
[/align]
[align=right]
[/align]
.I will say that it is more likely that hunters like myself create more opportunity for younger or inexperienced hunters by letting young bucks walk,we also increase the likelyhood that someone other than ourselves will kill an older buck by letting young bucks walk.
How do you start a kid fishing letting him catch a whole bunch of blue gills or satlking bonefish across the flats?
If I'm out and let a bunch of bucks walk in a season and then decide to kill a small buck on the last day of the season what does it hurt?
LOL
08-03-2007 | 10:08 PM
#165
Boone & Crockett
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 19,137
Likes: 0
RE: Healthy herd myth
It is easy for a hunter with any kind of experience to consistently kill 1.5 year old bucks,
08-03-2007 | 10:12 PM
#166
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,668
Likes: 0
From: NY
RE: Healthy herd myth
ORIGINAL: tsoc
The contention that if there are less big deer,the accomplishment in taking one will be all the greater is an interesting one.
The contention that if there are less big deer,the accomplishment in taking one will be all the greater is an interesting one.
Absolutely.............the biggest deer I have ever killed wouldn't even raise an eyebrow in a big deer state. Here, he was special.
Or that thesephantom animals are out there but some of us are not skilled enough to find them.Both of these lines of thinking are absurd! Big bucks leave clues to their existence,big rubs,big tracks,sightings etc..Yes big bucks are hard to kill but they are not mystical,if they are there you or someone else will see them.
For anyone who has a passion about an endeavor it is assumed that as time goes by and experience is gained that a person would want to continue to grow and evolve in the challenges that they hold themselves to.
It is easy for a hunter with any kind of experience to consistently kill 1.5 year old bucks,they are the most naive,unaware segment of the deer herd.Where the heck is the challenge in that!
Why should this be any different?
I know one thing for sure any experienced hunter who would pursue 1.5 year old bucks with intention will never hunt with me! If they want to hit from the ladies tee,they aren't going to do it with me!
United we stand.
08-03-2007 | 10:13 PM
#167
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,668
Likes: 0
From: NY
RE: Healthy herd myth
ORIGINAL: Charlie P
How many deer have you killed with a bow at less then twenty yards off the ground while still hunting? If you can't do it consistently I don't want you hunting with me.
It is easy for a hunter with any kind of experience to consistently kill 1.5 year old bucks,
Ouch.
08-03-2007 | 10:16 PM
#168
Boone & Crockett
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 19,137
Likes: 0
RE: Healthy herd myth
Germ here is some information from Cornell on the pilot program in Ulser county is being viewed.
Attitudes about the Pilot Program
There was considerable divergence as to how respondent’s perceived other
hunters’ attitudes about the program prior to the 2005 deer season. The largest group
(41%) thought that hunters took a “wait and see” attitude. Almost one-third (32%)
thought hunters were generally opposed to the program, while 26% thought hunters
supported the program. Following the deer hunting season, somewhat more respondents
(51%) believed that support for the program has remained the same; 28% felt fewer
hunters supported the program after the season, and 20% indicated that more hunters
support the program after the season.
Compliance with the Regulations
Most hunters (60%) indicated they didn’t know how good hunter compliance was
with the pilot program regulations. Of those who had an opinion, 72% felt that
compliance was strong enough to begin to show a change in the age structure of bucks.
Thirteen percent of those who answered the question, or 9% of all respondents, indicated
they knew someone other than a hunter under 17 years of age who took a buck in 3C or
3J that did not meet the antler restriction criteria. These 47 respondents reported
knowing of 105 bucks that taken that did not meet the minimum antler criteria. At the
4
upper end, 2 respondents reported 6 bucks, one reported 7, and one reported 8 bucks
taken (not necessarily by the same hunter) that did not meet the minimum antler criteria.
Additionally, 22% indicated they heard about bucks that were did not meet the
minimum antler criteria. These 74 respondents reported a total of 197 bucks that were
taken illegally; one respondent had heard about 11 deer taken illegally, and another heard
about 10 deer taken illegally (not necessarily by the same hunter).
Overall Satisfaction
Overall, 39% of respondents indicated they were generally satisfied with their
hunting in WMUs 3C and 3J, 31% indicated they were generally dissatisfied, and 30%
gave a neutral rating of neither satisfied nor dissatisfied. The general outdoor experience,
hunting with friends and family, and knowing efforts are underway to change the age
structure of bucks were the leading sources of satisfaction. Not seeing enough deer,
insufficient access, and lack of time to hunt more were the leading sources
08-03-2007 | 10:31 PM
#169
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
From: WI
RE: Healthy herd myth
ORIGINAL: rybohunter
Healthy deer in a good habitat produce a lot of fawns.(per deer)A lot of deer in a poor habitat don't. (per deer)
Healthy deer in a good habitat produce a lot of fawns.(per deer)A lot of deer in a poor habitat don't. (per deer)
5o does(good population)each have 2 fawns you will have 100 fawns
100 does (over population) each have 1 fawn you will have 100 fawns
So.....Either way there are 100 fawns, who cares if they come from 50 deer or 100 deer, the result is the same. Therefor if what you say is true, we don't need to worry about it, because nature will take care of over population onits own.
Some of you keep talking about a big deer die of in the UP. You blame it on hunters and the dnr screwing up. In all reality if man did not exist and deer were on their own, a harsh winter would still lead to a large die off, thats nature for you.
I understand why you would want to see bigger antlered deer, who wouldn't. I too like big bucks and have let smaller deer go in order to shoot a bigger deer. I also shoot lots of does. I like to eat them, but I also like to hunt them. I do not talk down to someone that shoots a spike or someone that decides not to shoot a doe. Why can't that be their choice. Not every one has the grand vision of a monster buck around every tree. Not everyone has the time or patience for this kind of hunting either. It is pretty unfair and self ritious to tell a guy that only gets two days a year, that he needs to pass up on that small buck he sees, so you, that has time tohunt 20 days each year, can shoot bigger bucks.
If you want to shoot does than do, if you don't then don't.
If you want bigger bucks let small ones go.
If you don't care, hunt how you see fit.
I bet my wife wishes I was the latter, as she'ld see alot more of me in the fall.
08-04-2007 | 04:56 AM
#170
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,208
Likes: 0
From: Pittsburgh, PA
RE: Healthy herd myth
ORIGINAL: tsoc
The contention that if there are less big deer,the accomplishment in taking one will be all the greater is an interesting one.Or that thesephantom animals are out there but some of us are not skilled enough to find them.Both of these lines of thinking are absurd! Big bucks leave clues to their existence,big rubs,big tracks,sightings etc..Yes big bucks are hard to kill but they are not mystical,if they are there you or someone else will see them.The deer kill statistics in my part of Ulster County New York run about 2 bucks per square mile,roughly 80% to 85% of those bucks are 1.5 years old.The odds of killing a 3.5 year old buck are tremendously low,because they don't exist in any kind of reasonableby my standard numbers.
I don't want to stack 1.5 year old bucks like cord wood and every so often reminice about the 16 inch 8 pointer I shot in 1989.
At least one in every three years my buck tag remains unfilled in NY state,so who is less selfish,me the selective buck hunter or the hunter who every year kills multiple 1.5 year old bucks while letting doe tags go unfilled? Who has the Horn Porn and who doesn't?Last I knew male and female deer taste alike!
I don't ever expect that I will convert any one to a different way of thinking.I will say that it is more likely that hunters like myself create more opportunity for younger or inexperienced hunters by letting young bucks walk,we also increase the likelyhood that someone other than ourselves will kill an older buck by letting young bucks walk.So again who is more selfish?
Some of this crap is so obvious a blind man can see through it! For anyone who has a passion about an endeavor it is assumed that as time goes by and experience is gained that a person would want to continue to grow and evolve in the challenges that they hold themselves to.It is easy for a hunter with any kind of experience to consistently kill 1.5 year old bucks,they are the most naive,unaware segment of the deer herd.Where the heck is the challenge in that!
I know one thing for sure any experienced hunter who would pursue 1.5 year old bucks with intention will never hunt with me! If they want to hit from the ladies tee,they aren't going to do it with me!
The contention that if there are less big deer,the accomplishment in taking one will be all the greater is an interesting one.Or that thesephantom animals are out there but some of us are not skilled enough to find them.Both of these lines of thinking are absurd! Big bucks leave clues to their existence,big rubs,big tracks,sightings etc..Yes big bucks are hard to kill but they are not mystical,if they are there you or someone else will see them.The deer kill statistics in my part of Ulster County New York run about 2 bucks per square mile,roughly 80% to 85% of those bucks are 1.5 years old.The odds of killing a 3.5 year old buck are tremendously low,because they don't exist in any kind of reasonableby my standard numbers.
I don't want to stack 1.5 year old bucks like cord wood and every so often reminice about the 16 inch 8 pointer I shot in 1989.
At least one in every three years my buck tag remains unfilled in NY state,so who is less selfish,me the selective buck hunter or the hunter who every year kills multiple 1.5 year old bucks while letting doe tags go unfilled? Who has the Horn Porn and who doesn't?Last I knew male and female deer taste alike!
I don't ever expect that I will convert any one to a different way of thinking.I will say that it is more likely that hunters like myself create more opportunity for younger or inexperienced hunters by letting young bucks walk,we also increase the likelyhood that someone other than ourselves will kill an older buck by letting young bucks walk.So again who is more selfish?
Some of this crap is so obvious a blind man can see through it! For anyone who has a passion about an endeavor it is assumed that as time goes by and experience is gained that a person would want to continue to grow and evolve in the challenges that they hold themselves to.It is easy for a hunter with any kind of experience to consistently kill 1.5 year old bucks,they are the most naive,unaware segment of the deer herd.Where the heck is the challenge in that!
I know one thing for sure any experienced hunter who would pursue 1.5 year old bucks with intention will never hunt with me! If they want to hit from the ladies tee,they aren't going to do it with me!