mshane

Well, after waiting 3 months for my DC Pat it finally showed up today, I was so jazzed up when my dealer called and said it was here. Went home grabbed my SQ2 and headed to the shop. Needless to say it was a very disapointing afternoon. After setting the DC Pat up EXACTLY the same as my SQ2, ie measured draw length, draw weight, same things on the string, with limbsavers, and shooting the same arrow out of both bows at varying draw weights, the Dually was literaly only 2 fps faster than my SQ2. We tried everything and nothing seemed to speed it up. Placed a call to Bowtech and the tech guy asked the exact setup which we gave to him, he said he would go shoot that same setup and call back in 10 minutes. Well, when he called back his setup was 25-30 fps faster than mine at the shop. I was so looking forward to this thing, it' s like my girlfriend walked out on me at the prom. To Bowtechs credit they are going to overnight another one out for me. The birth certificate show 61.5# at 28" draw with an IBO arrow of 300 at 312 fps. We could only get 298 out of it at the shop with same poundage and 300gr arrow. I am not trying to bash anyone here, but that is nothing short of disapointing. I have several times had Bowtech Shooter and Bowtech tech people tell me based on my setup 29" 60# 360gr arrow that I should get right at 300 fps. Best we saw at that setup was 276, and yes we changed the module to a 29" draw. Hopefully the next one is up to speed, literally. If not here I am stuck with a bow that gives me no more than my 2 year old SQ2.

Matt / PA

mshane......
When you got the 298fps at 61.5/300gr arrow what else did you have on the string?
That speed seems reasonable against the 312fps if you have ANYTHING else on the string like a peep,loop ,kisser etc. Also not all chronos are the same. So if you have anything additional other than what BowTech used to test shoot your bow I find 298fps very possible.

But Here' s where I have a problem with your calculations..........
Your KE level for your 300gr/28" set-up is 59ft lbs.......your KE level for your 360gr/29" set-up is coming out at 61ft lbs.
This is IMPOSSIBLE from the same bow.........basically what you are saying is that your KE level stayed exactly the same even though you increased your draw length a full inch? That small change of 2ft lbs of KE between set-ups is what I would expect by only the arrow change from 300grs to 360grs within the same 28" /60# set-up.
Does it seem right or possible in your mind that by adding an additional 1" of power stroke and 60grs arrow weight that you got no change in KE level?

I' m not guessing on this stuff........just by the raw numbers that you provided points to an obvious mistake somewhere on your or the shop guys part....or a mismarked 29" module.
If I WAS to guess? I' d say that there is nothing at all wrong with that bow.

This is not an attack man I like you on these boards, I just want to point out what you are overlooking in your haste to be dissapointed in a bow you' ve really been looking forward to.

tm

The bow should be faster. However you' ve said with the same things on the string and same draw length it isn' t that much faster. Whether it' s the bow or module or whatever it isn' t right. Seems like Bowtech is having some growing pains, but they' ll make it right.

mshane

The first time we put it through the chrony was right out of the box, nothing on the string but the nock and the bowtech string silencers. I' m pretty sure of those numbers but I may be off a few feet, I can check with the guy at the shop tomorrow, regardless it was still only 2-3 fps faster than my sq2 with the exact same setups wheter my memory serves me that well or not on the other numbers I know for a fact that those numbers are correct becasue I was shocked. The shop owner was shooting it then because he has had the same thing with two other duallys. He shot his 70# 29" dually at IBO and was only 5-7 fps faster than his legacy. I' m definatly not trying to bash Bowtech, the guy at the shop called me last week when he couldn' t get his 70# rig up to specs and told me I could cancel my order, but I didn' t, I really wanted to shoot this thing a little bit and make up my own mind. THe thought of drawing 58-60 lbs and getting that kind of KE in a hunting scenario was and is so appealing to me. I read somewhere that someone else had this same problem, I think he just bought a XVFT instead of trying to work out the kinks. Trust me when I say I really want this bow. All i' ve done the last 3 months is hype it to friends and I guess it was just a let down. Like I said, the tech guy on the phone went and shot one at their place and was 25-30 fps faster with the same setup we were shooting. I don' t know what the problem is but I hope the next one is better. Again, I am not trying to run down Bowtech in any way. Go back and look at my posts here, at eders, and even the bowsite, you will not find a bad word from me about anything, let alone a Bowtech.

With all the Bowtech bashing going on, I really wanted to be able to come on here and post great results but that just wasn' t the case.

Matt, I deleted this post at Eders becasue of your comment over there, but the truth is that THIS dually just wasn' t up to speed. Notice I said this....

Matt / PA

mshane, I know you, and I know you ARE NOT bashing BowTech.......
You really need to understand that something is VERY fishy about the numbers you got.

1. You stated you took you SQ2 along and set your Patriot up EXACTLY the same.
You now are saying that you originally shot the Patriot right out of the box? Am I to assume that you also only have a single brass nock and Hush Kit on your SQ2?
In your first post you stated that the 1st thing you did was ad " THINGS" to the string to make it " Just Like your SQ2" and then went to test shoot it?
Which is it?
If yo stick with your original post the 298 number is very possible........if you are now taking that back and saying you shot it right out of the box, you might have a problem. These are 2 very different scenarios and can change the tone of the entire post

Did you guys carefully check cam synchronization? Just because it' s new doesn' t necessarily mean the cams are synch' d. Physically watch and feel both cams to see if they roll over at precisely the same time. If they aren' t say Bye bye to speed in a hurry.[]



2. EVEN IF your bow is truly 12fps slower than stated " Right out of the box" .........what you described with the 28" vs. 29" is STILL not possible by the laws of physics. THINK ABOUT IT.

28" /300gr/61.5#/298fps= 59ft lbs of KE
29" /360gr/61.5#/276fps=61ft lbs of KE

I have never heard of a bow that will shoot the same energy level (which is what this amounts to) by raising the power stroke a full 1" and at the same time raising arrow weight by 60grs.
Is a light bulb not going on yet?.........that can' t happen.

Please understand that this isn' t an attack......you are a valued member here and I know you " Saw" what you saw. But trust me there is a piece of this story missing, and its an important one.
I don' t know if you got to read my second post on Eders or not, but this is a prime case of why these internet forums can be a dangerous thing.
A simple off the cuff review can be interpreted by many who are coming here for information as gospel........Many people could come to this topic and read no farther than your first post and come to the conclusion " Bowtech isn' t this, and BowTech isn' t doing that I' m staying away" ........and then they tell everyone they know.
This kind of thing can seriously hurt a manufacturer, and its not just BowTech, it can and does happen with all manufacturers. Half truths are a very dangerous thing, and posting a " Review" good or bad without a complete grasp of the numbers and an understanding of what they mean doesn' t do anyone any good.

I' m not saying that there ISN' T something wrong with your particular bow........but based upon your initial " facts" such as string set-up etc. I think not.......and it still does not remove the discrepancy between the 28" and 29" set-ups.

If you are going to post results based upon numbers, you must be precise......." About" isn' t acceptable in an evaluation.
I think you need some double checking, using a calculator, grain scale, chrono, and EXACT measurements for draw length and weight.

I' m trying to help you , AND me understand what is going on at the same time so please don' t take offense to these posts.

I' m not trying to compare my bow and yours.......but I can tell you this about my Dually Pat......it shoots as advertised.
30 1/8" measured/70# measured with a 375gr arrow. Loop and SIMS Leeches.
=319fps
If I were to strip the string bare, and move to a 350 gr arrow 330' s would be attained rather easily.

I do know one thing for sure......even with the screwy numbers BowTech is overnighting you a replacement bow to help you so that says something right there about them.

mshane

Matt, you are correct that I said the first thing we did was set it up like my sq2, but the 298 number was with BT hush kit and 1 brass nock. The shop owner even made a comment that the bow seemed to like the lighter arrow better. I' m not a real techinical guy when it comes to this stuff. I just know what the end result was... 2fps. When the new one gets here I will write down the exact order and results of what is done to it so that I can have things correct chronologically. Again I guess that my dissapointment and my haste to post and see if anyone else was having the same problems and have a possible solution, things may have gotten out of order. To be honest I have a hard time remembering what I had for lunch today. If you would like, I can have my shop owner give you a call with what happened. And I say that with all sincerity, not trying to be a smart a$$. I really would like to know what if anything is wrong. The only thing that I can think is that somehow maybe he put the module on wrong, don' t even know if that is possible I agree, that' s great customer service. And I was very pleased to hear that from their tech. I guess if I was just trying to run down a company I wouldn' t have pulled the post from eders, and it' s already gone off the first page at archery talk, I got to it too late to jerk it from there.

Matt / PA

mshane,
Youknow the more I think about it........the more I lean towards cam synch. If you can still remember where you put your bow Stand in front of a mirror and draw it very slowly watching the cams. Make sure that they are both rolling over together exactly.
Without looking It' s very easy to just draw it back and when you hit a wall forget about it and shoot........You can' t tell that the other cam didn' t roll over unless you accidentally " overdraw" the bow and get it to break over.
With only one cam rolling over you will still get a valley and a wall, just from one cam and speed can be WAyyyyyyyy off.
It' s very easy to not notice the other cam not making it to full draw if you are just assuming both are hitting at the same time.

Check this and at least set that possibility to rest.

I know you are not a basher......and I know you are not out to get anyone.......I am glad you understand the seriousness of these types of posts, and I' m glad that you are willingto keep an open mind about the situation.
Please keep me informed as to what you find.

Kanga

I have to agree with Matt on the cam sync.
When I got mine one cam was out only atwist of the cable but enough to effect the speed.
Once we got them in sync the speed went way up and i am not talking 5fps I am talking 20fps.

Mine was shooting with a 345gr arrow at 288 with cats whiskers peep and loop and a 385gr arrow at 275fps.
I have since added the magnocks and am getting 295fps from a 317gr arrow with the added magnock reciever on the string.

Buck Magnet

Matt/Pa has a great point. Cam sync is a terrible thing. I shot my 2002 Hoyt MT Sport through a chrono with a 394.4 grain arrow, and all accessories at 244 f.p.s. That is a 65 pound draw at 30" This bow has an IBO speed of a whopping 272 f.p.s.

My friend shot his Browning Tornado with the exact same set-up arrow weight and draw weight wise, except he had one less inch of draw length. He actually had less accessories on his string. His bow shot 239 f.p.s. Now, this was odd to me. His bow has an I.B.O. of 298 f.p.s. That is 26 f.p.s. fast than my bow. My tech guy at the pro-shop didn' t think a single inch of draw length difference would do that, so he checked my friends bow over.

The bow was out of tune, the tiller was off by something like a quarter inch. He didn' t check the cam sync but he said he could feel that it was off. Well, my friend is going to take his bow back whenever he has some free time to get it tuned, and I am guessing that he will gain 20 f.p.s. from that alone.

I know one thing, my BowTech MightyMite is shooting better than I thought. I picked it up today. I have nothing on the string except that single nock. I had the draw length set to 30 inches, and a measured draw weight of 72 pounds. I shot my 31" Beman ICS Hunter 400 (total weight of 394.4 grains) through the chrono today and shot an amazing 309 f.p.s. Not too bad considering a IBO arrow is 44.4 grains lighter. If I was shooting a 350 grain arrow, I am guessing, and this is just a guess, that I would be right at 325 f.p.s.

Another thing that could have gone wrong is something with the chrono. My pro-shop tech guy was shooting his 03 Patriot at 296 f.p.s-298 f.p.s. with it entirely set-up for hunting. The one day I was their, the chrono was reading 271 f.p.s. with the exact same thing. Well, they fixed the chrono and he was shooting right around 298 f.p.s. again.

P.S. Matt/Pa, I don' t know if you got my private message, but stupid me didn' t realize that I had the settings so I couldn' t recieve private messages. E-mail me or Private Message me.

PABowhntr

Ok Matt, I had to change my threads on bows from " tests" to " review" because some folks were not happy with the term...now I have to change them from " review" to " experience" ....

...thanks alot....