sproulman
I have to agree with you on those points of grouse decline. One issue I would doubt is the dog issue. I don't believe that dog hunters have put a significant dent in the grouse population, just as it's not the "Alpha" deer hunter who significantly reduced the deer herd.

Habitat is key to grouse numbers. We all agree upon that point. So why when the PGC does a major cut do they not put in a few plants, shrubs and trees that the grouse would benefit from, such as Hawthornes, Highbush Cranberry and some Chokecherry? The agency talks a lot about habitat improvement, but doesn't seem to practice it much when it comes to grouse. The forest on Game Lands appears to be managed primarily for saleable timber. To prove my point, the chief concern these days is Red Oak regeneration. Won't deer and other wildlife eat White Oak acorns?

Do you know of any, or ever seen aHawthorne thicket on PA Game Lands?
Food plots aren't the answer. The forest must be managed for Game as well as for saleable timber. Our Game Land forests need to be much more diverse rather than be managed much like a plantation for a few specific type of marketable timber as is now the case.

You guys are all bringing up good points on the grouse, but at least the game lands I visit, and my own land the habitat for them is great but the numbers are way way down, IMO and only IMO I think the amount of predators are more of a factor then anything. I'd like to know how much a fox or Yote will go into a nest and steel eggs, or get thier chicks at a young age. I don't doubt for a minute though that other SGL's ain't sporting much of a habitat. State forest land now, thats a different story!!!!


I will add that I also don't think the wet springs in the past helped but we'll see next year thats for sure!!!

If you want more grouse plant Hawthorns.

According to your guru, we're supposed to plant the seeds of yet more lawsuits, according to this:

http://www.smdailypress.com/articles...ews/news03.txt

I got em Crazy on my own land, tons of em but yet the grouse are down there too, thats what I'm saying!!! I also have a yote and fox problem too!!!

crazy horse,going off the grouse for second. i had 1 beagle years ago when rabbits were all over. local friend had 4 beagles.he cleaned all rabbits out of areas i hunted. he hit those spots at least 3 times a week.that area never did come back.same with grouse. i saw a dcnr guywith 3 dogs, bird ones, get grouse here when we had hard time with 1 dog .he knew were every grouse was cause his fellow workers told him daily. he really is putting hurt on grouse but i understand he has stopped hunting but many others have taken his place. with less grouse and pressure on those few left, you can see what i am seeing. i agree, its hard to hit those grouse and that is what is saving some but i see a lot of grouse getting shot if you have right dogs and keep at it.i see more 2 or 3 dogs now hunting than ever before and what grouse are left are all in one area,not like years ago when grouse were all over and did not get pressure they get today.

we can tell a pheasant but not grouse. but grouse is to fast to even look, ha.

hawks kill way more grouse than a hunter w/ a dog.

I got ya Sproul, I thought you meant when you kill one, that was stupid on my part!!!

Deerfly,the antlerless allocations were almost cut in half this year in 2G and that's why the antlerless kill was down almost 50%.The buck kill was down but so was the pressure.We also had terrible weather on the two of the biggest kill days.I'm in the woods constantly and my own observations definately tell me that the herd has rebounded since 2004 and it will certainly rebound more after this spring.

I don't want huntersto do anything.All I'm saying is that the deer are there if you hunt for them in the right places.I don't mean travelinghundreds of miles or hiking back in2 miles.There's good places to hunt and poor places to hunt in the same general areas.Most of my hunting is done within 1/2 mile of a road.In some cases,I can actually see a road.You don't have to necessarily get off the beaten path to find deer around here.

Idon't agree with everything the PGC has done but my hunting is no worse today than it was 10 years ago.I see less deer but I still get multiple opportunities to pull the trigger if i so desire.

Sproulman,you have some pretty interseting theories.I especially like the one about how grouse hunting has changed fron a roadhunting game to a dog-hunting game.Maybe if you guys got out of your vehicles and actually hunted you'd see more deer in Clinton county.I can't even believe you typed that.