I understand that if we harvest more deer than we recruit,the future harvests will decrease.All I'm saying is,it's not as bad as many claim.Hunting should take some effort.If someone expects a reasonable amount of success,scouting should be a priorityand so should a basic understanding of deer habitat.Understanding why deer are using different areas during different periods of the year are important to success.It shouldn't be brain surgery but it shouldn't equate to shooting fish in a barrel either.

I hunt and scout year round because I like being in the woods.My seven year old daughter has been going with me quite a bit for the past two years.I don't know if she's going to hunt or not but she'll understand what it takes to be successful if she decides to.She knows what a browsline looks like and can identify certain preferred browse species.even at her age,she knows a spot probably won't be productive if you can see 300+ yards through the trees and ferns.She also knows hunting is never a guarantee.She sees me coming home empty handed enough to know it isn't easy but she also sees enough dead deer hanging in the garage to know it can be done with a little work.It's cool being able to tell I killed a deer from the stand she helped me hang.

I'll be the first one to stand up and say it stinks hunting deer at 10 dpsm.You can hunt for days and never see a deer regardless of how good of a hunter you think you area.I know there are areas like that but around here,that only applies to areas where the habitat is terrible.In these cases,there's alot more to it that just an over harvest.

DeerFly, Doug may have a point about moving to another hunting location that has better prospects. But after spending thousands of dollars on a camp and investing many years familarizing with the area it's just not practicle to travel to an unfimiliar area possibly many miles from camp in hopes of finding better hunting when the hunting in my camp area was once very good. That is "Good" until the PGC decided to practice modern, scientific deer management under that assassin Alt.

Actually, if Doug really wanted to challange his own "Alpha" hunting skills he would start hunting in the 5C and (especially) 5D WMU. This is where the seperation between a deer hunter and an"Alpha" deer hunter lies. I'll bet Doug could drive down there in say,...3, maybe 4 hours...kill a monster buck and still make it home for a midnight snack before retiring for the night.

Crazhorse,I understand the frustration of investing time and money into a camp and then having few deer.My question is,who shot all those deer?If someone truly feels their area is being shot out,why would they shoot a doe there?I imagine none of the guys complaining shot any doe the past several years.Furthermore,there's no place in this part of 2G where a guy has to travel many miles to find decent hunting.Stay out of the barren wasteland of habitat they call state forests and a guy should be able to find decent deer hunting.

I hunt in the WMU that has some of the lowest deer densities in the state and I'm not complaining.Why would I want to travel to 5C to hunt.Are you telling me the hunting is tougher in 5C,assuming you can find a place to hunt?Besides,I never mentioned 5c or 5D.My comments have been about 2G where so many people say there's no deer.All I ever said was I have no problems finding deer around here.Sorry if that goes against the grain of how you perceive the situation.

I never claimed to be an "alpha" hunter or a trophy hunter of any kind.I'm an average guy that spends alot of time looking for new places and periodically checking out old places.I don't do this for a living so if I can have consistant success in 2G,most should be able to.I appologize for not having anything to bitch about.Is deer hunting as easy as it once was?Nope,but anything worth having is worth working for.Besides,we neded less deer in this part of the state and anyone who denies that,has their head stuck in the sand.They also have their head in the sand if they think hunters are solely responsible for the decline of the deer herd.

Larry,I don't know what the sustainable buck harvest is in 2G.It's a big unit so I suppose if you add in all the places where deer have no business living,it could be that low.That's the whole problem.People need to recognize that not all of 2G has decent deer habitat.I hunt where there's food and cover and I guarantee there's alot more than 2 bucks/mile.

you are right, i agree. yet i have not seen only 1 hawk do it but i know they do.the peeps and rabbits are hit hard.hawk in my yard at homehas killed 2 of my blue jays.cats are killing every baby rabbit i have but about 1 each year. they kill baby squirreals also.something should be done about the predators we have. i know we can kill a coyote but its hard to get them.at times i feel we have more predators in woods than grouse or rabbits.not to get off track. i did see years ago a dcnr hunter clean grouse out of areas. i saw it. i also saw a rabbit hunter clean rabbits out of area.i saw it.so, hunter is biggest predator .i used to leave rabbits/grouse go in area so next year you would have them. i was only hunter in that area. along came other hunters and shot them down to just a few. now, area has very little to hunt.how can we ever have good hunting if everyone is hunting same areas and game is killed down to a few. on my land i have all kinds of rabbits. walk for miles on stateforestland and you will not see a rabbit. i dont kill off my rabbits on my privateland in kettle creek., only couple each year to make my beagles happy.so, i still have predators and still have rabbits.why, biggest predatori can control.HUNTER.and trappers get my coyotes but i still see hawks . i built lots of cover for rabbits also. this has helped a lot. sorry, i talked so much.

Crazyhorse,I have no interst in hunting 5C when the hunting is just fine around here.I have a buddy that owns 200 acres in Sinnemahoning.He's a forester for the US forest service and bought the property for the timber.The property has never been posted and it's bordered on 3 sides by state forest land.Most of it is actually unhuntable because it's so steep.He timbered the property in 2001-2002 and dmap'd the property because he wasn't seeing any regeneration except birch and striped maple.The surrounding habitat was so poor that the deer flocked to his cut and ravaged anything of value.You couldn't find an oak or red maple sapling no matter how hard you looked.I went up there on the last day of rifle season without ever setting foot on the property before.The only thing I had was a photo copy of a topo map.I had him circle the areas where he had it timbered,figuring that would be the best place to start.I didn't expect much because several of my friends have camps up there and they all told me not to waste my time.The PGC killed all the deer up there.As it turned out,it took me an hour andfouty five minutes to climb to the top where it flattens out and the timbering was done.I never crossed a single track on the way up the mountain.I don't know if you ever hunted that area or seen it it but it's strait up and down.Once I got to the top,there were fresh tracks all over those cuts going back and forth between patches of laurel.I sat for about 10 minutes to catch my breathwhen I saw a lone deer walking through.It turned out to be a legal buck but all I had was a dmap tag.I took a walk around that top and still hunted the edge looking over a bench.At 9:30am I was standing there within 50 yards of the state forest boundary when I noticed a bunch of deer meandering out of the striped maple.I shot the biggest doe that gave me the best shot and deer just exploded out of that cut-over.There had to be close to 20 deer in that one bunch,which is more than I've seen at one time in a long time.And yes,I was skinning a deer by lunchtime even though I never scouted an area that's over an hour a way from my house.Come to think of it,I think I did have a snack when I got home.

Interestingly,this spot is open to hunting.In fact,the landowner encouages it.It's bordered by state forest on three sides and I never crossed a single footprint in the two hours I still-hunted that area.It's not a far out of the way spot either.You can look right down onrt 120 and 872.The other thing I noticed was that the habitat was absolutely terrible.There was no understory except some mountain laurel and blueberry.Other than the area that was cut,there was no browse at all.All the deer congregated there because there was nothing else to eat and it will be worthless in another couple years when the striped maple is out of the deer's reach.

The people that have camps up there are screaming about no deer.Yet,I saw no evidence of anyone hunting one of the few areas that actually had food.That area is way too steep to hunt most of the ridges but there are fewer deer in most places up there.So who shot all the deer?The answer is,no one.The habitat is so poor that I guarantee the winters of 2003 and 2004 tookit's toll on adult deer and recruitment.No way canyou blame an overharvest on the situation up there and that's the situation accoss much of the northern tier.

doug, you always here truth from sproulman. back ,lets say arounddepression on to about 70s, most of the way grouse were hunted was from vehicile. it still is today but you dont have grouse you did back say in 50s /60s .it was meat and thats how you got it.almost everyone that hunted did it this way. as for deer, yes, deer were shot that way to.but most hunted in gangs at camps,then if tired, they took a ride and got their deer.dont ever think that hunters dont know how to hunt.this is way it was and still is today EXCEPT now you have MORE road hunting than before because you have to cover territory to see a deer.as for more dogs today, true. you did not see a grouse dog years ago, you did rabbit dogs but very few grouse dogs. was not needed as road hunting was way grouse were hunted from depression on.no need to make smart remark about getting out of vehicile as why we dont see a deer here in clinton county or 2g. people like yourself that want to try to convince others that we are not HUNTERS and dont get off road or WAYBACK,so we dont know what grouse or rabbits or deer are here.doug, if a rabbit farts,most here know where he did it. same with grouse and deer turkeys. but you are welcome to your opinion why us HUNTERS cant see game you do.just try to not insult us that we dont know how to hunt or find game.trust me, most hunters know how to hunt, wheregame is ,what it takes to get that game,road hunting, driving deer, treestands, dogs.HUNTERS today are more in touch with whats there than i have ever seen in 50 years of hunting.hunters are doing more scouting than i have ever seen do to lack of game.anyhow,maybe you are a better hunter than all of us old timers, ha.take care ,ole friend.

Hey,you're the one who brought up road hunting not me.Sorry but anyone that road hunts is a slob.I really feel bad about your situation.Ever since the depression,the small game is gone because there's suddenly hawks and cats killing all the grouse and rabbits.Now the PGCis killing all the deer by issuing too many tags and what hunters don't kill,they're bringing mountain lions in to finish the rest off.Times sure are tough in the Sproul these days.You better write your leg.

Is road hunting legal in PA??

sproul,
Both the PGC grouse biologist and the ruffed grouse society blame lower numbers on reduced clearcutting practices.Predators also have an impact.

Doug,
I wish I still lived in Clearfield and had more time to scout.I'd be a all year round scouting fool.But work and family brought me down yonder in the ladder 70's.The little public land here gets hammered and deer are few and far between.Once the pheasants get stocked the two deer on these gamelands heads for posted land real quick.That's why I take the 3 hour drive every weekend in archery.