Dnk

Sorry but as far as the last two sentences go, you contradict what you say. Do you remember telling everyone to go F**k themselves and a few other insults when you were not happy about your Y25? Or how about at Crossbow Nation when someone kidded you a bit? I am sure you've burnt a few bridges at a few forums.
Everyone is interested in your experiences but not your brand of wild burst of insults at both man and machine. Even your "friends" refer to you as having a smoldering fuse.
Intelligent people do voice opinions like David and we listen to him and respect him. Bitting, flighting and name calling turns and opinion into an insult and is rarely regarded positive. Cut the insults and you'll find respect and may be admiration around each post you make at all of the forums.

DaGriz

DNK:
I do not look for respect from you nor from Awshucks, nor several other people who frequent the forums. If what I say goes against their grain, so be it. I'm not losing any sleep over it. If people insult me they can expect the same in reply!!
If I think a product such as the Y25 I owned is a POS then I say so. If people don't like my opinion it's no loss to me. I know what I had and how it performed, it is evident that certain people only want to hear positive things about anything. Won't happen from me unless it happens to be a positive experience,

Whether I am short fused or not, that'sthe way I am. I know full well who my friends are , and I also know those who pretend to be. If people don't like me or the way I am they can go F__K themselves. They are the losers not me!! I don't deny telling people that and I will say it again when it needs to be said.

I don't want or need your advice so keep it to yourself.

Dnk

But Darrel, there is no need for the abrasiveness whatsoever. You know that, I know that, we all know it. Can't you bring yourself to round a few edges off? If not to gain respect but maybe not to rub others the wrong way for no reason?

GrumpyTom

I usually do not get involved in threads that bash people, use profanity or just plain are there to cause problems.I also did alot of reading to get up to speed as to what all happened. I probually do not know everything, but I read enough to know basicly what has happened. Yes, people have the right to put forth their opinion and what they think. But it is that, an opinion and not fact on any paticular product. The great thing in this world is that everyone is different and like different things, again that is a person preferance or opinion.

But honestly DaGriz, your above quote .......... just because someone does not like you ... they are losers. Again that is just a personal preferance or opinion, and is what you are claiming that you have the right to put forth. If you have the right to put forth an opinion, they they do as well.

Now about the bow and your review (personal opinion that is). I have never fired the Relayer Y25 but have handled a few and have found them to be a great fit for me. I have also shot and hunted with crossbows for almost 30 years so I do know a little about them. I have also been around many Excalibur Crossbows (have owned one for over 25 years, orginal Relayer) so I know the dependability that goes into each bow. I also know that if there are problems with one specific bow that has been made, the Excalibur company will make things right, that is just the way that they are (in manufacturing mistakes can happen, you know, people do build them). Your claims that the arrow speed is just not there, I can't see that unless you have done something to cause this by accident. After I read that you had another bow from a different Manufacture and had the same claim that it did not achive it's advertized speeds, I think that maybe your Crono needs to be checked out. I think it's important to the image to Excalibur that they not miss lead hunters or shooters and I have never known them to miss lead customers with speeds that can't be obtained with normal hunting arrows. Some compamies use arrows that you can't hunt with or shoot on a regular basis to get their speeds, not Excalibur. This is from being around them and many of their bows for over 25 years.

Now about forums. When you post something on forums like this, new people, who come here to learn can and probually will read it as gospel. Remember that if you bash people, products or organizations, or use profanity, you only lower your opinions in other people's minds. The use of well stated opinions, facts will only carry your opinions to a higher level.

For the people that do know me, they know that I could care less if you like me or not (so do not call me a loser ). I do not know you, so Ihonestly do not have an opinion as to if I like you or not.I did not reply here to center you out or to attack you personally. I did it because I do not like forums that attack people or their opinions (know matter who is doing the attacking) and have left some forums for that reason.

Wyvern Crossbow

I hate to say it, but you are wrong here...Excal does not make, or sell a 350grain arrow. You cannot buy their bow, and their arrows, and achieve their "advertized" speeds. Will they get those speeds? yes, but I have to explain to my customers that the "305fps" listed on a Pheonix will really be 285ish with a "hunting weight arrow" even if they buy a "right stuff" package and use an "excalibur" arrow. I just pulled out another manufactures bow and came within 6fps of advertized speed with a slightly heavier than factory arrow. You cannot do that with an Excal. Though a great bow with many fine features and a great performer, their advertising is deceptive to the novice archer and TenPoint to be "competitive" did the same missleading advertising. I would sell more Excals and TenPoint recurves if the speeds listed could be achieved with the factory arrows and not some custom built arrow that is on the ragged edge of causing a dry fire...

Wyvern

Dnk

I'm sure you know that this is common on many bows David and one should expect it. I am not saying it is right but compound bow manufactures do it as well. I don't want to use an IBO set up for hunting. The arrow would be to fragile, I would not have a rear peep or kisser button and I'd have to give up my serving and loop. I know it's an old discussion but all manufacturers should get their act together and agree on one MO. But is it going to happen? Not!
I got a 350 gr hunting arrow by taking a 340 Fatboy and cutting it down to 19", cutting my rear insert in half and then using Blazers. Does it shoot? You bet! Does it get 330 ft/sec? You bet! Did I get upset because I had to work to get the 350 gr arrow? No, because I've bought enough equipment that didn't acheive advertised speeds before these bows. I'm not disagreeing with you David, I'm agreeing with you but with qualification of my comment.

Wyvern Crossbow

I agree that IBO is annoying as well. One of the diferances though is that for lack of a better term crossbows are shooting out of a "machine" since they are shot at full draw all the time. I have not found factory speeds that far off with the other manufacuturers I sell when using their factory arrows. You are experienced enough to know that if you pick up an Excal off the shelf, stick in a factory arrow and shoot it it will not shoot the advertized speeds, but I can pick up any TenPoint(except their recurves)or Parker and get what they claim or darn close with the factory arrow. I get calls all the time where people are comparing bows and hear "Well, the Vortex shoots the same speed as the "X"" and when I tell them that it will not they feel like they are being lied to by Excal and buy the other brand. In compounds, it has been arround so long it is expected, but crossbows are attracting a diferant crowd such as novice archers and it is not right to "fluff" your speed numbers (not right for compounds either). If you could buya 350gr arrow from Excal then it would not be so deceptive. It would simply be a point of saying that the speeds can be achieved if you buy "this optional arrow", but that is not the case. Your average guy who reads all the "Excal is the greatest thing since sliced bread!" comments on these threads is going to look at the website, see 305fps, "may" read the little footnote, then buy the bow and rightstuff package and think he is getting 305fps when reality is 285fps. I gave Tenpoint crap at the last ATA show when they claimed 300fps with their recurve and I found out it was with a 350gr arrow. MY first questions was "are you going to be selling 350gr arrows?" when the answer was "no" I told them I thought that was deceptive advertizing. Their response was it was how they had to compete with Excal. You are right, the compound industry will not change, but crossbows only have this issue in the recurve end. It is not too late to change...all Excal and Tenpoint have to do to at least take the deceptive part out of the advertizing is to offer 350gr arrows. I dont see where this is a real problem.
Wyvern

awshucks

I think they came real close at one time.

The GT's that came w/ a Right Stuff package I bought in 2004 [?] weighed 357 gr and I got 350 fps out of the Emax I shot them from. They had alum inserts and nocks and 5" vanes.

I know they changed from them somewhere along the line, but not sure when or why.

Dnk

Excal does put the arrow weight at the bottom of the bow's page in red! Ten Point does not!

awshucks

Don, isn't the 'Firebolt" standard issue now? Aren't they around 380 gr? Admittedly, that's enough over 350 to keep them from getting max fps even w/ FFF strings.

Maybe the switch by GT to the thinner walled shafts has something to do w/ it all. a custom arrow maker on Excal was lamenting the fact he could,'t get 350 gr w/ them as the 'old' components came to 330 gr.

Excal could have got 350ish w/ them by providing 125 gr points, but suspect that would have turned into a disaster w/ guys going to 100 gr and being under limit.

Here's more trivia, lol. Many of us know Miller dances to the beat of his own drum [said fondly] but back in '04 he told me he didn't even carry the minimum weight GT's. His all had brass inserts and 4" vanes vs 5".

I recently weighed some he provided w/ an Emax, GT's brass, 4" vanes, 408 gr. What I don't know is if they were in a RS package or not.

I'm glad I don't have to sell them, lol. Wyvern is not the only one that doesn't care for this situation, [don't blame him either]met a dealer in Knoxville that carried on for a half hour on his dis-satisfaction. He sold his stock at wholesale and quit carrying them.