Oh yeah,we all know that Jarret anf Jr. don' t pull the ol bump and run!!!!

TJD,

your first post is out their man! lets start talking dates of these things you want to outlaw as you say.

aluminum arrows, 1940-50' s
solo cams 70' s
mech headslate 60' s
plastic vanes wanna say late 60' s but cant put a finger on it also
rests since bows were born and the first person whined about shootn off their hand

even compounds.

Things that were played with to the tune of the 1950s or earlier!

baiting, lets see upland game hunters, waterfowlers, big and small game hunters of all kinds use bait to their advantage regardless if they put it their or not!

dont use scent lok dont plan to

trees, jeesh time to stop climbing, been doing that since I can remember walking.

buck lures, ha! I' d hate to put a date to that one, maybe prehistoric mammoth in heat scents.....

food plots or a farmers alfalfa field....hmmmmmmmmmm

hunting near agriculture, like duh!



Looks like its time to get rid of the greats, Bear, Pope, Young, Hill, and some of the more current, Adams, Wensels, Jones, James, etc etc etc.......

Guess its back to ishi days eh? Oh wait, deer skin loin cloths were an advancement in his time.




Lets get real folks. Their needs to be some kind of marker put on just pure lazyness. Hunting is just that, hunting. How many of your kids really KNOW how to use a map and compass....I' d bet not as many as can run a computer or gps! We dont bend over for the anti' s, hopefully never will. We do however try to keep some kind of image of what the term Bow HUNTER should be. Its the 80 (or so) percente of the none hunting public we conform too. Now let me tell ya, advancements are great.....to a certain level! But where do you draw the line in the sand where the ONLY difference is DRAWING THE BOW from it being a xbow. Not that I really give any quams on xbows, but I am sure ask the Nuge, he can shoot his wheels flat on his stomach lock stock and barrel! Where do you stop taking the easy way out and start working for success, heck even get rid of the term itself and redefine it! Isnt it so amazying that success for one at 50yrs of age is a different world then one at 18. Just makes ya go hmm for a second if you have any lick of sense. For that matter, we dont need no stinkn anti' s we' ll shoot of the bullet ourselfs to take us down! At the rate we are going its just a matter of time as the noose gets tighter and a heritage goes extinct, unfortunatly to soon!

Btw,

The founder of the P&Y club is now NINETY TWO yrs old. Still kicking strong and loves to chat. I had the opportunity to sit and chat for awhile with him last october. You can still get ahold of him at Northwest Archery Seattle Wa. If you are in the area of the Museum (yes he has a museum and a great one at that), GO!!! After his passing this museum is going to be no longer in WA, it will be shipped off to BFE Mn (my home state btw). Another grand piece of the archery world soon to be gone.

Their you will see some of these old things

Mech heads from who knows how long ago
the FIRST solo cam (NOT MATHEWS LMAO)
Aluminums with the founder Doug Eastons name signed on them from quite a ways back.
bows
arrows
mounts
pictures
books
and old equipment of many types




I' ll end with a question, something that need not be answered, just think about it:

What is a Bowhunter TO YOU?

TFOX, two of you now have said the comparison doesn' t hold water, isn' t worth discussing (or is ridiculous) and neither of you have bothered to offer any backup to your comments. I guess it isn' t worth discussing because you can' t refute it and have to resort to derision instead?

Just because YOU can' t hold back an 80% letoff bow any longer than a 65% doesn' t mean 999,000 others can' t. Here' s a little tip I picked up at another site on how to hold for a long time. Draw, rest the bottom wheel on your knee or a handy limb to take the weight of the bow off your bow arm, then when the shot is there, simply raise the bow, aim, shoot.

Raise the bow, aim, shoot. Isn' t that exactly what you do with a crossbow? With a BOW don' t you raise the bow, DRAW, aim and shoot? Comparison made, comparison proved. Refute it, if you can.

Beatty, in a magazine article, says that he drew and held his draw for AT LEAST two minutes waiting for that monster deer to move into range. He did not draw in the immediate presence of the animal. He used his bow just like it was a crossbow. P&Y doesn' t claim that is not bowhunting. They say it' s not FAIR CHASE bowhunting.

Athur , I don' t want to argue, because I know you know a !@#$ load more than I do about archery. And I agree that if you have to draw and hold for 2 minutes that an 80 % is easier . But realistically, at least in my hunting, I usually draw right before I shoot ,as soon as the opportunity presents itself . I pick my lanes and shots carefully & rarely have I ever had to hold for more than a few seconds. To me in that situation the let off doesn' t really matter.

I understand that the line has to be drawn somewhere, but I agree with some of the others that comparing a x-bow to an 80% compound is a little extreme .

What do you think about the new bows that are generating so much speed ? If you take a Bowtech Black Knight 2 on 50 pounds 65 % and it shoots just as fast as someone' s older bow on 70 pounds at 65% . Naturally the new bow will be easier to hold back for a longer period of time. Should they adjust their rules for that ?

yes Tfox, both DJ and Jr do the bump and run, but I hadn' t seen either of those drivers, just purposely plow into the driver ahead to wreck him. it was obvious that was what Gordo done. he should have been blackflagged BIG time![:@]

well, you forgot somethin there Aurther p, not only do you rest the bottom wheel of your bow on your knee, but you also drop your elbow of your holding arm to your side, which helps that arm from giving out so soon.

but, can' t you do the same with a 65% letoff bow. why sure you can. that little tip, wadn' t meant to be just for higher letoff bows, do you think?

there is no way you can compare an 80% letoff bow with a xbow and you know it!
but, if you want to prove your theory, why don' t we just take a vote on this forum?
yawn' t to?[8D]

Tfox, you said something about Jr. and DJ doing the bump and run? Wow I have never seen such a thing...

Arthur

When was the last time that torque affected a crossbow.
Or the string slapping the arm.
How about target panic(punching trigger)xbow will not have the same result that a real bow will.

How about being able to use a bench rest.Pretty hard with a bow but not with a crossbow.

Bogobble,you seem to forget Jarret trying to put Gordan in the wall last year or maybe the year before and when Gordo returned the favor on the very next lap.Jarret was screaming and crying and was ready to fight.Sounds to me like he whines a bit too.This is a bow forum and I will let this discussion die.

Well, at least you don' t call yourself " LilReader" . Try rereading my post. Try rereading both posts where I state that P&Y can make whatever rules they want; they may find more resistance given the seeming obsession with this particular rule. Also, did I ever say I wanted to " outlaw" any of the other practices or pieces of equipment? Nope. Again, reread what was written. I am simply pointing out that P&Y' s seeming obsession with let-off as a line in the sand issue is rather strange, even comical. As for the rest of your...rambling post...not sure what GPS and compass reading had to do with anything we are discussing here either, but...hey, it' s a free country, dude! [&:]

Kinda hard to follow what point it is you are trying to make here. On one hand, you seem to be saying all of these high-tech advances have been around for decades, but on the other hand saying that such advances are contributing to hunter " laziness" : I suppose I can counter that with another argument in the vein you seemed to be on:

HUNTERS HAVE FOR YEARS SOUGHT TO IMPROVE THE EFFICIENCY AND EFFECTIVENESSOF THEIR EQUIPMENT AND TODAY' S ADVANCES ARE NOTHING MORE THAN A CONTINUATION OF A PROCESS THAT BEGAN THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO.

My point is not that any advance that comes along should just be waived in. My real point is again... WHY of the hundreds of advances that have made todays bows and arrows more efficient and effective, why single out let-off as the issue to make a stand on? As to your reasoning about crossbows... There is no comparison...none! Different aiming, still have to hold a bow with >65% let-off at full draw...too many differences to even discuss.

My last post was more in response to AK' s post: AK, I don' t disagree with that. It seems odd that, given all of the other advances in bow technology, improved arrows, composite materials, etc. that P&Y now finally wakes up and says" Wow! Technology is really making an impact! We need to do something!" Higher let-off doesn' t make a bow a virtual crossbow anymore than a scope on a high powered rifle makes it a smart bomb. This whole issue reminds me of the story of Fred Bear' s one time refusal to manufacture compound bows once they became popular, since he felt they weren' t " really bows" . His attitude changed over time...amazing what a colossal drop in sales can do to make one reconsider.

well, it don' t seem to be many here that agree with you folks that beleive a 75-80% letoff bow is the same as a xbow.

so why do we need to prove ya' lls theory wrong, that a 75-80% letoff bow is a xbow, when nobody else beleives it.

like I said before -- rediculus!