Some background info may be helpful in forming an opinion. Here are two articles on Pope & Young. (No, they weren' t two guy who started a record book, but popularized and legitimized bowhunting in the early part of last century.)

http://www.stickbow.com/FEATURES/HISTORY/DrPope.CFM

http://www.stickbow.com/FEATURES/HISTORY/ArtYoung.CFM

Glenn St. Charles followed suit in the middle part of the century, legitimizing the bow as a viable hunting tool via the Pope & Young organization. Here is a link to an interview with Glenn (now in his 80' s I believe), which includes (in part) his thoughts on continuing technological advancements. The media clips take a while to load, but he gets his point across particulary in clips 3, 9, & 10.

http://www.bowsite.com/bowsite/features/interviews/stcharles/

The Pope & Young club today has mearly drawn a line in the sand as to how far they are willing to accept technology. If not at 65% letoff, then where? 80%? 90%? 100%? 400fps? 500fps? At what point is modern equipment no longer recognizable as bows?

Proff,

I don' t think that my post was in any way " mean-spirited. As I stated at the start of my post: it' s their club and they can set whatever rules they want. Of course, don' t expect the majority of bowhunters, most of whom now own the newer equipment to continue nodding in affirmation over something like the 65% let-off limitation. Let' s face it, P&Y has sort of painted themselves into a corner by selecting let-off as their line in the sand, yet being silent on technological improvements that have had FAR greater impact on a hunter' s ability to harvest game. First, going from stick bow to compounds. Big difference there! Then let' s talk about aluminum shafts versus wood, and carbon shafts versus aluminum. Again, aren' t mechanical broadheads allowed? How about baiting? But of ALL of the issues addressed by P&Y, they pick let-off as their issue to take a stand on.

I would argue that, compared to the other advances listed above, let-off has a lesser impact than most of those listed. Is it easier to hold at full draw with greater let-off? Yes. It' s also generally speaking easier to shoot a compound with ANY degree of let-off than it is to shoot a stick bow.

So again, of all of the issues out there, why let-off? Could it have to do with the fact that, with the increased popularity of bowhunting over the past 15 years that the P&Y book is getting too full for the liking of some of its more senior members? So how to slow down the rate of increase? Disqualify any buck shot with the most popular and readily available bows on the market, most of which have let-off greater than 65%. Think that' s not the case? If the issue is " fairness" or " fairchase" , then why haven' t the other topics mentioned above ever been addressed?

TJD, your post wasn' t mean spirited at all and I wasn' t implying thatin any way. I was just afraid that this post was going in that argumentitive direction. The weather here has been crummy for the past week and I am getting sick of it , plus last night Dale Jr. ( at least Jeffy didn' t win, well at least as a driver) got knocked out in that stupid pile up and the Winston so I guess I was just kind of in a bad mood and not really wanting to see a big argument among fellow bowhunters today. I am not pointing any fingers at anyone at all. I just didn' t want to see a big bash fest start thats all. Sorry about that. I am in a better mood now so you can all have it out now Just kidding.

So Arthur , what your saying is that if anyone uses a bow with 75% or 80% letoff they might as well be using a x-bow?

Hey proff, you a nascar fan to huh? I think Gordan was drunk or somethin. He knocked my driver(ward burton) out of it. Just plain run him over. and run over several other drivers to. I ain' t got no use for Jeffy anymore at all.[:@]

Oh yea bogobble, big Nascar fan here. I live about 1-1/2 from MIS speedway in Brooklyn, Michigan. we go to the august race evry year. I am 38 and have been going to every year since I was in about 8th grade. We started out with my dad and I and 2 other stes of dad/sons that were our best friends. The women all stayed home. Now it still my Dad and I and the one son who is still my best friend after all these years. Only now the group has expanded to my sister and brother in law, my wife, my buddies wife and then Dad asks one person who has never been to a race before. Mom still stays home and watches the grandkids ( our daughter and my sisters three duaghters). Pretty cool how it has all progressed with three of the originals are still going after all these years and now we are taking wives!
Now about last night. You are right about Gordon. He was all over evryone last night. I haven' t been able to hack him for quite a while. He whines whenever someone even gets close to him. I just get sick of luck always seeming to go his way. Whenever he needs a yellow it always seems to happen somehow. I remember a few years ago at Michigan when the week before Mark Martin' s dad was killed in the helicopter crash. Everyone was rooting for Martin to wil the race. He had dedicated the race to his dad. Well it came down to the end and Martin was leading by like 10 car lengths. He was flying and there were about 4 laps left and jeffy was in 2nd and there was no way that he had time to catch him. My Dad looked over at me and said you watch there is gonna be a caution and Gordon will end up winning. It wasn' t 15 seconds later one of the tail end cars spun out and there was the yellow. Then on the restart Gordon got Martin loose and passed him and did end up winning. Man that place went crazy. I have never heard so much booing. There was a guy right behind us with all Gordon stuff on, and he was even booing. He told us that even though he was a Gordon fan he couldn' t believe that Gordon did that considering the circumstances. People were pretty ticked off that day.I guess the way he drove last night was because he needed that million bad to help pay all the lawyer fees for that nasty divorce he is going through! I like several of the drivers , your driver ( gotta love Ward being the outdoorsmen he is) but I root for Jr. and Jarrett as my favorites. I do kind og like Jimmy Johnson but I hated to see him win it because of Jeffy being his co-owner. Oh well, maybe next week.

I bought my Q2 bow and made sure it was P & Y legal. I killed my first P & Y buck last season and was glad I had the opportunity to enter it into the record book. I agree with some of the posts that you don' t need an organization to verify you have killed a trophy animal, but to me the P & Y does us bow hunters a great favor. We can research and find out where the big deer are coming from and they give us much more information about the animals we love to hunt. Also, it is a good way to recognize some very great trophies.

They have to have some standards about killing an animal (i.e. - no cross bows, no fencing, etc.). It is an organization I am happy to be affiliated with, and not because I have a deer in the books, but rather because they are positive for the sport of bowhunting.

Bowfanatic, I would have to say YES. Especially if you use it to draw and wait for a shot. If you don' t draw with the animal right under you, when the shot is presented, then you' re using that high letoff bow exactly the same way as you would a crossbow. The only difference is whether you draw as soon as you climb into the stand or draw a minute or two before the shot. Either way, you' re not drawing in the immediate presence of game, and that has always been the #1 argument against crossbows in bow season.

your right about his luck! that turd misses ever wreck on the track somehow.
that' s the first time I' ve heard the story of Mark Martin and Gordan gettin him loose to win the mich race. that just prooves what a turd he really is!

Hey , I' m gonna send you a pm. you might be interested in somethin.

Arthur

I quess they need to ban Oneida bows because you can pull these back and rest it on your side at full draw and hold it all day.Heck you can even take the string off in the field if you want too.


Your comparison to xbows doesn' t hold water(that discussion isn' t even worth discussing).I can' t hold an 80% bow back any longer than I can a 65% bow.It puts too much weight on my arm that is supporting the weight of the bow.I need that tension that is provided by the 65% to hold the bow up and to hold it accurately.If I shoot an 80% bow I have to shoot it short on draw and pull REAL hard into the wall to get that tension back and it is no longer an 80% letoff bow when doing that.I think most are hurting themselves with accuracy with these bows but that may be just my opinion. Hope this makes since.



As far as drawing before the animal gets in a shooting lane.You are just setting yourself up for disaster anyway.You have no idea how long the deer will take to present a shot so pulling at the sight of a deer imo is crazy. I try not to draw untill I am ready to shoot but maybe that is just me.