Deputy

toby was here in michigan this past month! the savage is a good gun but 3k fps with a load that isnt legal to hun t with in a lot of states and from what i have seen accuracy suffered at those numbers at least out of my friends savage. you guys came up with a great gun for sure but it cant hit those numbers with pellets can it? i like the smokeless asspect of the savage i have shot some pretty wicked numbers too out of my ultimate with smokless and 5744 and vit powders as well, but the main differance is the ultimate is doing it with pellets not loose smokeless powder and it is legal,
ralph laymar has a pretty good article comming out here on the ultimate as well as gun world and a few others, but i will admit the savage is a nice gun for the money, and at 1500 hundred the ultimate is out of somes pocket book reach, i just worked a hell of a lot of ot to get mine and since i handled some of the first ultimates pre dating the savage, but maybe a head to head test is in order here! hummm i like that idea maybe ill get a savage and try it out against my guns.

also no vent liners to be modified, no replacing them, no sub bases etc.. just load and shoot and well i can get you my numbers with the 200 grainer if yah like as well it is scarry and then again just load and shoot, and no breech plug to pull and clean ever.

but all stuff aside have you talked with randy latley i have been meaning to call him

1SHOT_1KILL

Deputy, we've had debate on another forum. A head to head shoot off with the UF with Pyrodex or T-7 versus the Savage with smokeless, might be very interesting. No doubt that you are extremely proud and found of your UF. If it performs like you say it does, and I have no doubt it doesn't, then you have ervery right to be proud and found of it. I would be too.

Yes, Toby was up in Michigan last month. He was up there doing a smokeless powder muzzlelaoder siminar for the MI DNR and the hunter education program. Why he didn't stop by to fire a couple or a few shots over a chronograph with the UF, you will have to ask him that yourself. But like he has told me on several occassions, is that the only way he will test one, is that UF sends one to him for at least 6 months, let him shoot it, test it, evaluate it, and hunt with it, not the canned or staged so-called "test" that UF's wants him to do. Then he will give UF's and the rest of us his facts, comments and opinions, whether they be good, bad, or ugly. Any kind of other "test" would not a true indication of what the rifle could and could not do. Why will they not send him or anyone else a sample rifle to fairly and honestly test, evaluate, and hunt with?

I go this from the Ultimate Firearms, Inc., website:

Straight from the UF site. This rifle should NEVER be fire with a smokeless powder. The UF muzzleloader IS NOT A SMOKELESS POWDER MUZZLELOADER, WAS NEVER DESIGNED TO BE AND SHOULD NOT BE SHOT WITH ANY MODERN SMOKELESS POWDERS. Recommended Maximum Powder Charge 200 grains or (4) Pyrodex Pellets Four pellets or 200 grains of T-7 is exceeding UF's recommended MAXIMUM powder charge, not too mention 5 pellets or 250 grains.

First of all, the Savage was designed from the start to be a TRUE SMOKELESS POWDER MUZZLELOADER. For obvious safety reasons, I would not go advocating the use of smokeless powders in any muzzleloader that was not specifically designed to handle it and that the manufacture of that muzzleloader specifically stated and recommended the use of smokeless powder. To do other wise is just not smart.

Whether the Savage is equal to the UF or not, with Pyrodex or T-7, is irrelivent. The Savage is a smokeless powder muzzleloader first and foremost. It just so happens it can and will shoot BP and any of the BP synthetic powders. Quite well I might add. The number of states that do not allow the use of smokeless powders during the muzzleloader hunting seasons is growing smaller every year. The exact same thing happened to In-line muzzleloaders and saboted projectiles when they were first introduced. It won't be but a few years and that argument will be a mute point.

I can understand the vent liner comment, but they (vent liners) need not be modified. The vent liners are a wear item, designed to wear and be replaced instead of replacing the breech plug itself. Just the nautre of the beast with the Savage. I don't normally shoot sub-bases myself and I have no problem, with 2,300+ FPS with a 300gr bullet and 1.5" and better accuracy nor do I have much of any problem getting 2,600+ FPS with 250gr bullets with same accuracy or much better. All this in a rifle that is mild recoiling, much cheaper to shoot, and if you don't want to clean it right away, you don't have, as you can wait a a day or two, a week, a month, or even 6 months. And the Savage doesn't require a AFT Form 4473, and can be mail ordered and shipped directly to your home (if your state's law allow it).

However, on the UF you never, ever have to pull the breech plug and clean it? Have you ever removed your breech plug in your UF? Does it come out easy? Man, I would hate to see that breech plug after a few shots with Pyrodex and letting it sit for a few days, even if I did clean the bore, which I don't know how you can clean the entire bore without removing the breech plug. After a while of that I guess you would have to remove the breech plug, because you couldn't even if you wanted to. And what about using T-7, that stuff was a breech plug sticker for sure when first introduced, have you removed the breech plug since you have been using it? Again, can your breech plug be removed after shooting T-7 and not remove it promptly for cleaning? Just curious, because the UF website says that the breech plug is removeable.

bigcountry

1shot, been meaning to pose a quesiton to you. Was having a discussion about muzzleloaders on another forum. One guy claimed that the metal type or material has little or nothing to do with the savage being able to handle 125KPSI. He said its design only. Is this statement right. I thought the savage had much stiffer metal than say a CVA inline. Maybe you could clear this up.

1SHOT_1KILL

It is a combination of both. But mostly due to the quality of the materials used in the Savage. The barrel, action, and bolts, are the exact same material you will find on their centerfire rifles, 416 Stainless and 4140 Chrome-Moly. That material found in CVA are 1137L/1137LR or 1140L/1140LR, which is a much softer grade steel. While the 1137 & 1140 steels machine beautifully, they don't have the tensil strength and will not stand the the pressure that 4140 & 416 will. Also the breech plug is 4140 (not 416 SS, because stainless on stainless can gawled and become stuck) and the designed of the breech plug. The vent liner, with it's tiny .031" orfice, also contains much of the pressure by throttling back the amount of pressure that bleeds back toward the rear.

bigcountry

thanks for the info. Hope you don't mind me posting this on another web page on the subject.

Deputy

very true i belive in there own right they are great guns, uf i belive will be changing there info soon about the max charge, ralph lamayar (sp.) just completed a review of the gun for an up comming outdoor life article as well as a few other magazines have contacted uf for guns, i will try and get them guys to get toby a gun! i understand abouyt the gun being built from ground up as a smokless gun. and the vent liners now, as for the breech plug the design allows it to be removed but it need not be, the design of the breech plug allows no powder back into around the threads of the plug, dont ask me how but it good enough that 5 patches and iam done after a day of shooting. i will do some shooting against my buddies savage and see since we still cant use smokless here in mi i guess ill keep it until we change the law to shoot smokeless