Cousinvinny

The close mindedness of that is absolutely astounding. Can they not see that this is where the muzzle loading world is going? And that one day, the ratio of the number of BP muzzleloaders to the number of smokeless muzzleloaders is going to be reversed from what it is today? I mean, as long as you are still using a muzzleloader, and you are still restricted by the same limitations shared by all muzzleloaders, what difference is it to the state wildlife depts whether a hunter uses black powder, smokeless powder, or jock itch powder? You still have to go through the same motions as everyone else to reload after you have fired. Using a powder that is safer and does not corrode your gun does not make you one whit more likely to bag a deer than someone else who is using a powder that is more dangerous and that fouls and corrodes his gun. It gives you no technological edge whatsoever over the other hunters or the game animals, other than that you are more likely to return home with all your fingers and your face intact. The person who is using smokeless powder may have to brush his bore less than the person who is using a smoke generating powder, but that will not affect the chances of a successful hunt. If I use smokeless powder on a hunt, that is no skin off anyone else's back. The blindness and prejudice of people can really be astonishing.

The intent of their stupid law is not that you must use BP or a BP substitute, because smokeless powder is in fact the oldest and most traditional of all BP substitutes. It would be far more accurate to describe the intent of the law as that you must use a propellant which generates a lot of smoke. That is really stupid, because, how do you give a legal definition of "a lot of smoke?" How many cubic inches of smoke does your propellant have to generate at each shot in order to be legal? And what does the density of the smoke have to be? An attorney could have a ball with this law in court. Unfortunately, I do not have the funds to finance the battle. Maybe if Savage were to guarantee me that they would pay the legal expenses of the battle and the fine if I lose, I would intentionally allow myself to be caught using smokeless powder. It would certainly be in Savage's as well as the hunters' interest to see laws like this be stricken down in court, as they should be. This law is totally arbitrary and ill defined.

Vinny

Striper Phil

There may be some safety reason behind smokeless vice BP & its substitutes in BP guns. More likely they want to keep the BP hunting as original as possible. The inline started a snowball of diluting the original BP “PRIMATIVE “ hunting season. Seems there are many variations of how primitive various states want to stay. As to the smoke issue a significant disadvantage exists with smokeless powder in that it obscures sight of the animal when he runs away. I guess this adds to the experience for some. Don’t forget most states added a black powder season to the rifle / shotgun season years ago. If you make the BP guns to close to rifle maybe the BP season should be taken away. Lets see here’s some of what has been added since BP season inception.

Scopes, Inlines, Primers (waterproofing), Pellets (easier, waterproofing), Plastics( sights & Parts) For all intensive purposes other than loaded from the Muzzle BP has become a rifle if you care to upgrade. I would have no problem with all states going more backward like Colorado and dumping all the modern add-ons. Remember BP was Originally was synonymous with Primitive. I think some states called it a Primitive hunting season?? My 2 Cents

Cousinvinny

Scopes, primers, and smokeless powders all go back well into the 1800's. Pyrodex goes back to the 1970's. Triple 7 I think the 1990's. Pyrodex and Triple 7 are more "primitive" than smokeless powder and scopes, and that is why they are legal and smokeless is not. Huh? Say what? That must be the "new math," or something, because it sure is not computing in my books. Oh, and let us not forget, the man who invented Pyrodex was killed by his own product when his plant exploded..

Vinny

PhoenixMA

I think that maybe the intent of the law was to encourage hunters to become better outdoorsmen/women and develop the skills to get closer to their prey. Otherwise why have a special season. If not then a guy with a CF or BP or bow are all hunting the same area at the same time, and in this situation there is a distinct advantage. Assuming public land hunting. That's my opinion anyway whether its worth andything i'll leave you all to decide.

Deputy

I shoot a ultimate firearms muzzleloader and burn up to 250 grains of t7 pellets and get great numbers and it is legal in all states yet it does cost a lot more money than the savage, myself and randy wakeman have had many phone calls and emails with each other about these guns, and the savage is good but it does you no good if you cant burn smokless, my current numbers are

300 sst over 200 grains of t7 pellets are 2350fps on average

bigcountry

I am shocked you can get all that powder to burn efficiently. Your the first I have seen thats been able too. I bet your velocity spread are pretty wild.

herman

What kind of chrony are you using??Think I will go along with one of the experts on muzzleloaders and he says you cannot get the fps that Ultimate claims.
I know one thing I have tested an encore 50 cal and the most powder it will burn without throwing burning cinders out the barrel is 120 grs.Any length barrel will just burn so much powder before the bullet leaves the barrel.
If you want to read what bridges has to say,you can check it out at :
hpmuzzleloading.com

bigcountry

I have never got those number on my F1 Chrony that the manufactures advertise. But i kinda expected it. I never get the velocity numbers they advertise while centerfire reloading. I usually get pressure signs.

Deputy

first off toby has no gun that can even come close to the ultimate and he refuses to test he was just here in michigan and still wont come shoot it, and f1 is what i have and my numbers spred isnt that great, and it does burn all the powder in the first 16-18 inches it uses a 45 win mag casing as its igniton system, and a special breech plug, i have an encore and omega as well and dont use over 100 of t7 due to accuracy. but the ultimate is just that, ultimate it shoots and is not for everybody at 1500 a gun it aint cheap. if ever in michigan feel free to come shoot it. myself and randy wakeman have talked about it quite a bit as for toby well he hasnt shot it and he cant claim anthying he can stick to his savage with smokeless i get better numbers and accuracy with triple 7 pellets, not that the savage is a bad gun, but then again like i said the savage cant come close. and dont belive toby since he wont test it oh well! look for the up comming article in outdoor life and the nra magazines also look for the gun on a away outdoors this up comming week and on future hunts, i shoot 4 pellets and a 300 grain sst and do get 2350

1SHOT_1KILL

Hey Deputy, how it's going? Not trying to stick for Toby Bridges, he can do that capably himself, but the reason he hasn't tested one, is because they haven't sent him one, to test and wring out for himself by himself. He has stated to me that he was not interested in traveling up to Michigan, just to fire a few shots through a chronograph.

Not doubt that at those velocities, the UF is impressive, for a blackpowder rifle. But to state that the Savage does not come close, well that's not the case. We've been shooting 300gr XTP's at those velocities out of our custom builts for the better part of a 14 years now and out of Savage's for the past 4 years. Here is a link to Doug's site http://dougva.proboards34.com/index....avage&start=80
They are talking about 3,000+ FPS with the Savage now, with some loads. Even 2,600 FPS with light weight 250gr bullets are getting to be hohum, these days.