Triumph or Krb7
01-09-2008, 04:29 PM
#21
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
RE: Triumph or Krb7
Indiana SmokePole
Think you might be over-stretching ita bit there.. when you compare the Knight and TC... most really good shoting guns have more to do with the shooter than the gun. I would agree that that some Knights are excellent shooters but I would also say that there a lot of goodTC shooters also... in fact the best shooters I have are a couple of old Rem 700's and a White, but the neither Omega is a slouch either. Nothing wrong with being proud of a brand or declaring it the best in the world - but that is your world... Remember there was a string of Nights that were not worth a darn after Tony sold out.
I am not sure what you are getting at here...
I do load my Omega's, my Remingtons, my A&H's, and the White (not counting the sidelocks here) witha sabot/bullet combination with thumb pressure and to add to that that I load .503Bullshops in the first three and .5045's in the White with thumb pressure. Do not even go to accuracy because they are and in the hands of a better shooter than I they would even be better.
I think Flinthead has had two many BEERS I have yet to see a TC or any other gunwith a QLA that will out shoot a KNIGHT
I am not sure what you are getting at here...
ORthat you can load with your thumb unless your loading a bullet without a sabot
01-09-2008, 04:51 PM
#22
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
RE: Triumph or Krb7
MLKeith
Just some information for you... Orignally TC had contracted Harvester to produce sabots for them and they wroked very well in the TC barrels.(Plus another change occured for TC - they started making theirown barrels which caused a compoundedproblem...)Then they alsoswitched sabot vendors to MMP and there was a big batch of TC sabot/bullet combinations that were put out to the public that came with the HPH-12 (MMP's standard sabot) but it was soon discovred that those sabots will not fit a TC and TC revised the contract to be supplied with the HPH-24 which is comparable to a regular Harvester. Even those proved to be to tight for many of the new production TC barrels so again another contract with MMP produced the yellow "super glide" for TC these sabots can not be sold to the public by anyone other than TC, but MMP recognized the need of the thinner sabot so they then produced the MMP-3p-EZ load, Harvester folled with the "crush rib" and as you might be aware Hornady now has a contract with MMP to produce the red "low drag" sabot for them.. another 3p. Also when TC learned of the HPH-12 error, they offered a program to re-supply (replace) the incorrect sabots. Think you still might even be able to do that...
I have two Omega's and have abosolutely no problem loading them - including loading a .458 in an Orange MMP sabot.
There is one other problem that I am aware of... the older Omega/Encore barrels were bored .501/.502 while a large bunch of the newer ones are bored .49/.500 as Lemoyne has suggested. And unfortunately as you already know there is no standard bore in an ML that must e met by manufactures....
The biggest problem I had with my Omega's is soot and blowback but after taking your advicxe I did install a 25 ACP and problem solved... I can not tell you why I do not get the "crud ring as you describe in any of my guns...
revpilot
I really believe that you can load a TC if you find the correct sabot for the bore you have, actually that goes for any gun - it is a motter of finding a proper fitting sabot and there are a lot to choose from these days...
To show you what I mean here is a picture of some of the sabots I have, and these are the older one... there better ones available today...
It sort of burns me that a company like T/C would build a rifle that wont shoot the bullets and sabots that they send with the rifle. I admit that mine was bought a couple of years ago and the HPH24 sabots were not well known or maybe not even available
I have two Omega's and have abosolutely no problem loading them - including loading a .458 in an Orange MMP sabot.
There is one other problem that I am aware of... the older Omega/Encore barrels were bored .501/.502 while a large bunch of the newer ones are bored .49/.500 as Lemoyne has suggested. And unfortunately as you already know there is no standard bore in an ML that must e met by manufactures....
The biggest problem I had with my Omega's is soot and blowback but after taking your advicxe I did install a 25 ACP and problem solved... I can not tell you why I do not get the "crud ring as you describe in any of my guns...
revpilot
i was really hoping the loading problem was not a factor anymore with TC . i had a firehawk, and it was the worst to load, until i found powerbelts. Sounds like maybe its still the same with TC, i wish guns shops were like shoe stores, you could try them out........first
To show you what I mean here is a picture of some of the sabots I have, and these are the older one... there better ones available today...
01-09-2008, 04:56 PM
#23
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Indiana
Posts: 1,009
RE: Triumph or Krb7
Lemoyne
But you have to shoot farther than 25 or 30 yds .
I have 3 guns with the QLA system and they are or I thoght they was Good shooters until I bought A Knight Disc Extreme XT . And this gun shoots not only saboted bullets great @ 100 yds it will also shoot Conicals great also That is why I now have 5 no 6 KNIGHTS now and gave my TC Omaga to my son to tryand get to shoot good .
If you look through the threds what is the major complaint TC stocks cracken, can't get good groups no matter what they shoot , QLA not lined up correctly. And I really don't remember ever seeing were a Knight stock has busted or that anyone can't find a good load for any of them AND I don't see any complaints on the QLA not beeing right O O O thats right they don't have one because they know that the QLA is crap and they don't want to get a bad rep. And TC has had so many complaints about their stocks and the QLA LOOKS like they would fix it but they won't WHY . I have a TC renagade that I wouldn't take any thing for Why because it is a great shooter thats when TC made great guns WHITH OUT THE QLA SYSTEM.
Knight rifle are heavyer WHY because they have a good barrle on them by GMB , A good steel barrle is going to weigh more than a cheeper steel barrle, and look at alot of the sidelock shooters they are replacing there barrles with the GMB WHY because they are a good barrle and they shoot great also.
SO if any one needs to open there EYES it may be you.
But you have to shoot farther than 25 or 30 yds .
I have 3 guns with the QLA system and they are or I thoght they was Good shooters until I bought A Knight Disc Extreme XT . And this gun shoots not only saboted bullets great @ 100 yds it will also shoot Conicals great also That is why I now have 5 no 6 KNIGHTS now and gave my TC Omaga to my son to tryand get to shoot good .
If you look through the threds what is the major complaint TC stocks cracken, can't get good groups no matter what they shoot , QLA not lined up correctly. And I really don't remember ever seeing were a Knight stock has busted or that anyone can't find a good load for any of them AND I don't see any complaints on the QLA not beeing right O O O thats right they don't have one because they know that the QLA is crap and they don't want to get a bad rep. And TC has had so many complaints about their stocks and the QLA LOOKS like they would fix it but they won't WHY . I have a TC renagade that I wouldn't take any thing for Why because it is a great shooter thats when TC made great guns WHITH OUT THE QLA SYSTEM.
Knight rifle are heavyer WHY because they have a good barrle on them by GMB , A good steel barrle is going to weigh more than a cheeper steel barrle, and look at alot of the sidelock shooters they are replacing there barrles with the GMB WHY because they are a good barrle and they shoot great also.
SO if any one needs to open there EYES it may be you.
01-09-2008, 05:13 PM
#24
Spike
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location:
Posts: 39
RE: Triumph or Krb7
I hate to jump in and ask a question but what is the QLA. I am new and have a few posts and lot of reading and had decided on a TC Triumph for my first gun but I am a little lost now after reading this post.
01-09-2008, 05:16 PM
#25
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,092
RE: Triumph or Krb7
I too believe the QLA problem is very real and not just a single-batch problem. But I also think both Knight and TC are capable of (and often do) building the best mass production muzzleloaders available today. Knight (Green Mountain) has a better handle on barrel consistency based upon my ownership of several of each, past and present.
And I really don't see why this discussion should be confrontational in the least. If we all liked the exact same thing - it would be a boring world.
And I really don't see why this discussion should be confrontational in the least. If we all liked the exact same thing - it would be a boring world.
01-09-2008, 05:16 PM
#26
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Indiana
Posts: 1,009
RE: Triumph or Krb7
Sabotloader I will agree that a conical can be loaded by thumb presure I shoot a NEX460 out of my KRB also a UC Short 443 by Bull shop. but if I can load a sabot with just fingrs then it is to small and Most likely not going to shoot at its max Poten.
This has been a proven fact by to many shooters including myself on the sabots not conicals the conicals when in a good barrle will useually shoot good but my point is that the QLA system is not a good thing.
This has been a proven fact by to many shooters including myself on the sabots not conicals the conicals when in a good barrle will useually shoot good but my point is that the QLA system is not a good thing.
01-09-2008, 05:21 PM
#28
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location:
Posts: 5,180
RE: Triumph or Krb7
ORIGINAL: Indiana SmokePole
Lemoyne
But you have to shoot farther than 25 or 30 yds .
I have 3 guns with the QLA system and they are or I thoght they was Good shooters until I bought A Knight Disc Extreme XT . And this gun shoots not only saboted bullets great @ 100 yds it will also shoot Conicals great also That is why I now have 5 no 6 KNIGHTS now and gave my TC Omaga to my son to tryand get to shoot good .
If you look through the threds what is the major complaint TC stocks cracken, can't get good groups no matter what they shoot , QLA not lined up correctly. And I really don't remember ever seeing were a Knight stock has busted or that anyone can't find a good load for any of them AND I don't see any complaints on the QLA not beeing right O O O thats right they don't have one because they know that the QLA is crap and they don't want to get a bad rep. And TC has had so many complaints about their stocks and the QLA LOOKS like they would fix it but they won't WHY . I have a TC renagade that I wouldn't take any thing for Why because it is a great shooter thats when TC made great guns WHITH OUT THE QLA SYSTEM.
Knight rifle are heavyer WHY because they have a good barrle on them by GMB , A good steel barrle is going to weigh more than a cheeper steel barrle, and look at alot of the sidelock shooters they are replacing there barrles with the GMB WHY because they are a good barrle and they shoot great also.
SO if any one needs to open there EYES it may be you.
Lemoyne
But you have to shoot farther than 25 or 30 yds .
I have 3 guns with the QLA system and they are or I thoght they was Good shooters until I bought A Knight Disc Extreme XT . And this gun shoots not only saboted bullets great @ 100 yds it will also shoot Conicals great also That is why I now have 5 no 6 KNIGHTS now and gave my TC Omaga to my son to tryand get to shoot good .
If you look through the threds what is the major complaint TC stocks cracken, can't get good groups no matter what they shoot , QLA not lined up correctly. And I really don't remember ever seeing were a Knight stock has busted or that anyone can't find a good load for any of them AND I don't see any complaints on the QLA not beeing right O O O thats right they don't have one because they know that the QLA is crap and they don't want to get a bad rep. And TC has had so many complaints about their stocks and the QLA LOOKS like they would fix it but they won't WHY . I have a TC renagade that I wouldn't take any thing for Why because it is a great shooter thats when TC made great guns WHITH OUT THE QLA SYSTEM.
Knight rifle are heavyer WHY because they have a good barrle on them by GMB , A good steel barrle is going to weigh more than a cheeper steel barrle, and look at alot of the sidelock shooters they are replacing there barrles with the GMB WHY because they are a good barrle and they shoot great also.
SO if any one needs to open there EYES it may be you.
Because its easier and cheaper to send new parts out rather than get new tooling equipment to improve the issues.
Its cheaper to rebuild an alternator for a car, but we all know its a lot easier to just go get a new one.
01-09-2008, 05:28 PM
#30
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
RE: Triumph or Krb7
Phathead
The QLA is on the muzzle end of the barrel - it is a section of the barrel that has been bored larger than the bore itself so that you can drop you sabot/bullet combination into the barrel for easier loading. Anotheravantage (suppose to be) is there is now crown on the end of the barrel. Most crownson ML's are subject to damage by the ram rod rubbing them as you load or patch a barrel. Wearing the crown un-equally will cause loss of accuracy.
The QLA was actually thought of a long time ago by old time rifle builders and when it is installed correctly it is not normally a problem. My hunting partner has a TC Hawken with a QLA on itand shoots Bull Shop conicals very well - but the guy is also an excellent shot - he pops the headsof grouse with it all the time- 10/15 yards - not much of shot but for a open site ML he impresses me. He can shoot clay pigeon targets at a 100 yards with a 460 BullShop with out any problems (from a bnech and rest).
If you plan on shooting conicals then I would be some what leary of the QLA but there are TC's out there that shoot them just fine and visa-versa...
I have two Omega's but I have never shoot a conical from them so I can not tell you about mine, but then again I have no interest in shooting conicals from them.
The QLA is on the muzzle end of the barrel - it is a section of the barrel that has been bored larger than the bore itself so that you can drop you sabot/bullet combination into the barrel for easier loading. Anotheravantage (suppose to be) is there is now crown on the end of the barrel. Most crownson ML's are subject to damage by the ram rod rubbing them as you load or patch a barrel. Wearing the crown un-equally will cause loss of accuracy.
The QLA was actually thought of a long time ago by old time rifle builders and when it is installed correctly it is not normally a problem. My hunting partner has a TC Hawken with a QLA on itand shoots Bull Shop conicals very well - but the guy is also an excellent shot - he pops the headsof grouse with it all the time- 10/15 yards - not much of shot but for a open site ML he impresses me. He can shoot clay pigeon targets at a 100 yards with a 460 BullShop with out any problems (from a bnech and rest).
If you plan on shooting conicals then I would be some what leary of the QLA but there are TC's out there that shoot them just fine and visa-versa...
I have two Omega's but I have never shoot a conical from them so I can not tell you about mine, but then again I have no interest in shooting conicals from them.