ELK GUN 270 ?
04-27-2004, 10:35 AM
#21
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location:
Posts: 549
RE: ELK GUN 270 ?
Your right 338,
No matter the size of the caliber it does them no good if the shot is bad. And I will admit most magnum calibers are alot more helpful if it is a bad shot. Might even knock the animal down long enough for a secound shot.
I wasn't fair to the people who can shoot magnums really well, becuase myself I am one too.
Bugle published and article a while back and the author used the Elmer Keith raking shot as an example of why you should use a magnum over a standard cartrigde. He actually said if you were on the last day of the hunt and a bull had its rump to you then a magnum could take it down. While a hip shot on a elk is devastating on mobility I could not believe they were letting the public view articles of that quality. Its pretty easy just to hit meat on a elk rump than bone.
I know now that's not what you meant by your post. And understand where you were coming from. I see something about ify shots and it stirs me.
You and elkampmaster are right if the man can't shoot any gun well I'd rather see him shoot something with devastating power. I've seen people shoot so bad they were better off with hand grenades. I prefer the patient hunters that will say well if he don't give me the shot I want to take then oh well not going to chance it.
The funny thing is it don't cost that much to practice so you can atleast shoot decent. That's the real disappointment to guiding or seeing hunters missing in the field.
No matter the size of the caliber it does them no good if the shot is bad. And I will admit most magnum calibers are alot more helpful if it is a bad shot. Might even knock the animal down long enough for a secound shot.
I wasn't fair to the people who can shoot magnums really well, becuase myself I am one too.
Bugle published and article a while back and the author used the Elmer Keith raking shot as an example of why you should use a magnum over a standard cartrigde. He actually said if you were on the last day of the hunt and a bull had its rump to you then a magnum could take it down. While a hip shot on a elk is devastating on mobility I could not believe they were letting the public view articles of that quality. Its pretty easy just to hit meat on a elk rump than bone.
I know now that's not what you meant by your post. And understand where you were coming from. I see something about ify shots and it stirs me.
You and elkampmaster are right if the man can't shoot any gun well I'd rather see him shoot something with devastating power. I've seen people shoot so bad they were better off with hand grenades. I prefer the patient hunters that will say well if he don't give me the shot I want to take then oh well not going to chance it.
The funny thing is it don't cost that much to practice so you can atleast shoot decent. That's the real disappointment to guiding or seeing hunters missing in the field.
04-27-2004, 11:40 AM
#22
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cedar Valley Utah
Posts: 977
RE: ELK GUN 270 ?
The wolves thing has definitely got me wore out but here goes anyway. The 270 IMHO is not a good elk rifle. In the hands of an EXPERIENCED elk hunter I guess its ok. But if you are new to elk hunting my opinion is stay away from it. I can't refute any experiences any one has had here I can only share my own. That is I've seen a lot of elk taken by a 270 but I've seen more wounded elk and tracking jobs thanks to the 270 than any other cartridge. Everyone in my camp and family has sworn them off. Slowly but surely as each one eventually lost a bull or had to track one.
Why? Because the biggest factory load from a .270 is 150grs. IMO that CAN and has a TENDANCY (That means not always) to break apart on heavy bone. Seen a hlaf dozen bulls or so in my life go at least a mile with one busted wheel. You hit that front shoulder and you may just wish you'd brought a mans tool to do a mans job.
I don't know if you boys that shoot and kill elk with one shot from a 270 just got little bitty elk or what but I've seen bulls take one in the boiler room and need another from a 300 Winny. I can't dispute that an elk will expire everytime with a PERFECTLY placed shot but huntin ain't bench shootin. Any man who says he can put a perfectly placed shot everytime on an animal is lying or has Viva Las Vegas luck. Hunting is wind, uphill and downhill shots, branches, twigs, rifle shake(shooting from hunting positions), moving animals and range errors.
If you are new to elk huntin my opinion is 30-06 min cartridge. You old timers might wanna think about switching too. You just might like it.
Why? Because the biggest factory load from a .270 is 150grs. IMO that CAN and has a TENDANCY (That means not always) to break apart on heavy bone. Seen a hlaf dozen bulls or so in my life go at least a mile with one busted wheel. You hit that front shoulder and you may just wish you'd brought a mans tool to do a mans job.
I don't know if you boys that shoot and kill elk with one shot from a 270 just got little bitty elk or what but I've seen bulls take one in the boiler room and need another from a 300 Winny. I can't dispute that an elk will expire everytime with a PERFECTLY placed shot but huntin ain't bench shootin. Any man who says he can put a perfectly placed shot everytime on an animal is lying or has Viva Las Vegas luck. Hunting is wind, uphill and downhill shots, branches, twigs, rifle shake(shooting from hunting positions), moving animals and range errors.
If you are new to elk huntin my opinion is 30-06 min cartridge. You old timers might wanna think about switching too. You just might like it.
04-27-2004, 01:19 PM
#23
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location:
Posts: 549
RE: ELK GUN 270 ?
Everyone has an opinion and that's what america is all about. Thank god for that.
I've seen elk wounded by one caliber just as much as the next and in the end it all boiled down to nervousness, lack of shooting capability, and pure ignorance on having patience to wait out the better shot. We all screw up and a bigger rifle won't help you a bit if it's a really bad shot.
lets be safe, screw the 30-06 and lets all buy 50cal rifles that way we can cut the elk in half and not have to field dress it. Oh yeah I wouldn't suggest using a soft nosed bullet it in it . We better load full metal jackets so the bullet won't blow up. Oh wait what was I thinking buy the 20mm vulcan and have it air landed on a mountain top, take out the whole herd in secounds. I wonder if we should start using explosives broadheads on bows incase it hits a leg or something.
Oh i got it three triton war heads has surely got to be enough to take a bull elk. Then again better make it four.
I tried to not say nothing but nope i'm bull headed.
Oh wait I forgot we could pour gas on the elk and use tracer rounds. Ummmmmm instant lunch, anyone got a salt shaker handy?
I shot a chipmunk once with a 270, the bullet bounced right off its hide. And I had to take him down with a 577 tryno before he whooped my butt. That was a close one so I only shoot field mice with the 270 now.
I shoot a 300win mag (rather be huntin), but I've killed just as many bulls with a 270win. Really haven't seen any difference in the kills or damage. Just having fun sorry it was at your exspense. Ignore it, you do have your opinions and I can respect them.
I've seen elk wounded by one caliber just as much as the next and in the end it all boiled down to nervousness, lack of shooting capability, and pure ignorance on having patience to wait out the better shot. We all screw up and a bigger rifle won't help you a bit if it's a really bad shot.
lets be safe, screw the 30-06 and lets all buy 50cal rifles that way we can cut the elk in half and not have to field dress it. Oh yeah I wouldn't suggest using a soft nosed bullet it in it . We better load full metal jackets so the bullet won't blow up. Oh wait what was I thinking buy the 20mm vulcan and have it air landed on a mountain top, take out the whole herd in secounds. I wonder if we should start using explosives broadheads on bows incase it hits a leg or something.
Oh i got it three triton war heads has surely got to be enough to take a bull elk. Then again better make it four.
I tried to not say nothing but nope i'm bull headed.
Oh wait I forgot we could pour gas on the elk and use tracer rounds. Ummmmmm instant lunch, anyone got a salt shaker handy?
I shot a chipmunk once with a 270, the bullet bounced right off its hide. And I had to take him down with a 577 tryno before he whooped my butt. That was a close one so I only shoot field mice with the 270 now.
I shoot a 300win mag (rather be huntin), but I've killed just as many bulls with a 270win. Really haven't seen any difference in the kills or damage. Just having fun sorry it was at your exspense. Ignore it, you do have your opinions and I can respect them.
04-27-2004, 03:42 PM
#24
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Stoughton WI USA
Posts: 27
RE: ELK GUN 270 ?
Cherokee, I did get a chuckle out of that. And no offense taken earlier.
I found this link posted in another area by ElkKamp that I thought was pretty good for this discussion. It does not take into account trajectory, only energy I believe. It basically says how far (in yards) a given cartidge is effective at for a clean kill. You'll notice it does give a range for a .270 on a 600 pound animal (like an elk). I am not going to comment on the chart right now, take from it what you will, I will check back later.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/game_range_caliber.htm
I found this link posted in another area by ElkKamp that I thought was pretty good for this discussion. It does not take into account trajectory, only energy I believe. It basically says how far (in yards) a given cartidge is effective at for a clean kill. You'll notice it does give a range for a .270 on a 600 pound animal (like an elk). I am not going to comment on the chart right now, take from it what you will, I will check back later.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/game_range_caliber.htm
04-27-2004, 06:50 PM
#25
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location:
Posts: 549
RE: ELK GUN 270 ?
338,
I did read that ealier I'm glad elkamp posted that link there is alot of sound wisdom in all the threads. As a general rule that chart would fit way over half of the population of shooters. Most of the horror stories we hear of bad shots or rifles not being adequate for clean kills have not told the whole story about the shot itself. Maybe is was wind, brush, bad angles, or just plain shooting at hair through the trees. On a whole I totally agree with what Mr Hawks is saying. Most people should stay within those limits unless expertise and knowledge of their firearms exceeds those limits.
I posted the elk cartridge research from Mr. Hawks in the room. And would not be a bad idea to post the column for the chart in the forum. Some people won't click on a link to read it.
People who practice with whatever caliber are the one's who are really not in need of teaching, they already know what their rifle can do. I believe a person's own limits of expertise limits the useage of a particular rifle they shoot.
I have read most of the columns from that link, very good common sense and reality all in one. There should be more like it out there. We have to keep our posts short so we don't lose someones interest and they move on. And for some like myself it takes a mile to unravel the brain waves and explain what we are trying to say. lol
Good Link Thumbs UP
I did read that ealier I'm glad elkamp posted that link there is alot of sound wisdom in all the threads. As a general rule that chart would fit way over half of the population of shooters. Most of the horror stories we hear of bad shots or rifles not being adequate for clean kills have not told the whole story about the shot itself. Maybe is was wind, brush, bad angles, or just plain shooting at hair through the trees. On a whole I totally agree with what Mr Hawks is saying. Most people should stay within those limits unless expertise and knowledge of their firearms exceeds those limits.
I posted the elk cartridge research from Mr. Hawks in the room. And would not be a bad idea to post the column for the chart in the forum. Some people won't click on a link to read it.
People who practice with whatever caliber are the one's who are really not in need of teaching, they already know what their rifle can do. I believe a person's own limits of expertise limits the useage of a particular rifle they shoot.
I have read most of the columns from that link, very good common sense and reality all in one. There should be more like it out there. We have to keep our posts short so we don't lose someones interest and they move on. And for some like myself it takes a mile to unravel the brain waves and explain what we are trying to say. lol
Good Link Thumbs UP
04-27-2004, 06:59 PM
#26
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oregon USA
Posts: 51
RE: ELK GUN 270 ?
Gentleman
Jack O’ Connor proved the 270 Winchester over a lifetime of hunting Deer and Elk with it. Many times in print did he tell his story and adventures with it. Lets not forget that. On top of all that, I think one needs to practice with his firearm and let the two become one. I would suggest that you try this ammo for your Elk hunt.
Lll Hunter. Go to the library and get every book with Jack O’ Connor and read it. You will love the 270 afterwards. Sorry if you have already read them. I am just thinking you may not be familiar with him. He was the shooting editor for Outdoor Life for many years.
http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/821129
Good Hunting
Jack O’ Connor proved the 270 Winchester over a lifetime of hunting Deer and Elk with it. Many times in print did he tell his story and adventures with it. Lets not forget that. On top of all that, I think one needs to practice with his firearm and let the two become one. I would suggest that you try this ammo for your Elk hunt.
Lll Hunter. Go to the library and get every book with Jack O’ Connor and read it. You will love the 270 afterwards. Sorry if you have already read them. I am just thinking you may not be familiar with him. He was the shooting editor for Outdoor Life for many years.
http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/821129
Good Hunting
04-27-2004, 11:14 PM
#27
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Raleigh NC USA
Posts: 352
RE: ELK GUN 270 ?
A few questions - is the 270 what you have and is it something you can shoot well?
You mentioned the 7MM. A 7mm mag would be better, a 30-06 or a 300 mag better still, and a 338 plenty, but if you have the 270, shoot it well, and would prefer not to make a rifle purchase the 270 will work.
Illinois is a shotgun only state isn't it? If so, I can understand not wanting to make a rifle purchase if you don't have to.
A 270 with a proper load will kill elk. I think you should re-consider your choice of ammo though. A better choice would be a 150 grain Nosler Partition. Federal Cartridge makes them. A ballistic-tip might come apart and fail to adequately penetrate on an elk.
There's an good article in the latest issue of Guns & Ammo asking if we're overgunned? The author, Craig Boddington, makes a case for a "yes" answer. In his article Mr. Boddington makes the point that he likes the 338 for elk, but that a 270 will work also. He ranks caliber below shot placement and bullet selection. It boils down to a good bullet that you can confidently place on target.
You mentioned that you primarily bow hunt, so you're certain to understand shot placement. An elk hunt video showed a guided hunt with a 270 wby mag. The elk was able to soak up quite a bit of punishment - 4 shots to bring it down. You were able to see the bullet tracks in the mist/air and the first went into the belly, the second and third were similarly poorly placed, and only the fourth went into the heart/lung area, dropping him. Luckily for the hunter the elk stood there and took it. It it had bolted after the first shot things wouldn't have turned out so well.
You mentioned the 7MM. A 7mm mag would be better, a 30-06 or a 300 mag better still, and a 338 plenty, but if you have the 270, shoot it well, and would prefer not to make a rifle purchase the 270 will work.
Illinois is a shotgun only state isn't it? If so, I can understand not wanting to make a rifle purchase if you don't have to.
A 270 with a proper load will kill elk. I think you should re-consider your choice of ammo though. A better choice would be a 150 grain Nosler Partition. Federal Cartridge makes them. A ballistic-tip might come apart and fail to adequately penetrate on an elk.
There's an good article in the latest issue of Guns & Ammo asking if we're overgunned? The author, Craig Boddington, makes a case for a "yes" answer. In his article Mr. Boddington makes the point that he likes the 338 for elk, but that a 270 will work also. He ranks caliber below shot placement and bullet selection. It boils down to a good bullet that you can confidently place on target.
You mentioned that you primarily bow hunt, so you're certain to understand shot placement. An elk hunt video showed a guided hunt with a 270 wby mag. The elk was able to soak up quite a bit of punishment - 4 shots to bring it down. You were able to see the bullet tracks in the mist/air and the first went into the belly, the second and third were similarly poorly placed, and only the fourth went into the heart/lung area, dropping him. Luckily for the hunter the elk stood there and took it. It it had bolted after the first shot things wouldn't have turned out so well.
04-28-2004, 12:02 AM
#28
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,679
RE: ELK GUN 270 ?
The elk was able to soak up quite a bit of punishment - 4 shots to bring it down. You were able to see the bullet tracks in the mist/air and the first went into the belly, the second and third were similarly poorly placed, and only the fourth went into the heart/lung area, dropping him. Luckily for the hunter the elk stood there and took it. It it had bolted after the first shot things wouldn't have turned out so well.
04-28-2004, 07:23 AM
#29
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,395
RE: ELK GUN 270 ?
With all this talk about Jack O' Conner. I would like to point out Jack did not have all of these premium bullets to choose from either. Correct me if I am wrong? Didn't Jack use what we would call in this day & age a poorly constructed bullet?
04-28-2004, 08:25 AM
#30
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location:
Posts: 549
RE: ELK GUN 270 ?
Wolf you are right he didn't have some of the modern bullets today at his disposal. He had the bullets I still use to this day. Speer boattails. The man knew what he was doing. He was a superior rifle shot. Let me tell you a little story behind the man.
He was in africa on one of his many hunts. I don't remember the animal but I think it was a wildebeest. The animals was running while Jack was trying to draw a bead on it. The animal got into some heavy brush and of course was not even shot at. Jack's guide asked him why he didn't shoot the animal. Well Jack being Jack replied I've spent a lifetime developing my trigger pull and I'm not going to start messing up now.
Thats the kind of man Jack O'connor was. Yes he killed everything in the world with the gun(270) but he also knew when to take the shot. That's the difference between him and alot of hunters. I'm proud to say I personally believe in Jack's style of shooting. I won't take a bad shot no matter what the gun. The animal deserves that much respect from me. (Notice the me part everyone has to make their own choices)
Yes I mainly shoot a 300magnum now. I have my reason's on the rifle and the bullet choice. It's mine to keep. I'm not going to spend hours and hours explaining why I load a particular bullet in my rifle some wouldn't never understand anyway. Lets just say Jack was right when he said. One man, one rifle, and one load. Same thing everytime a animal on the ground.
Whatever you choose to shoot. Do the animal a favor practice and shoot your rifle, bow, or muzzleloader well.
He was in africa on one of his many hunts. I don't remember the animal but I think it was a wildebeest. The animals was running while Jack was trying to draw a bead on it. The animal got into some heavy brush and of course was not even shot at. Jack's guide asked him why he didn't shoot the animal. Well Jack being Jack replied I've spent a lifetime developing my trigger pull and I'm not going to start messing up now.
Thats the kind of man Jack O'connor was. Yes he killed everything in the world with the gun(270) but he also knew when to take the shot. That's the difference between him and alot of hunters. I'm proud to say I personally believe in Jack's style of shooting. I won't take a bad shot no matter what the gun. The animal deserves that much respect from me. (Notice the me part everyone has to make their own choices)
Yes I mainly shoot a 300magnum now. I have my reason's on the rifle and the bullet choice. It's mine to keep. I'm not going to spend hours and hours explaining why I load a particular bullet in my rifle some wouldn't never understand anyway. Lets just say Jack was right when he said. One man, one rifle, and one load. Same thing everytime a animal on the ground.
Whatever you choose to shoot. Do the animal a favor practice and shoot your rifle, bow, or muzzleloader well.