shot gun slugs
03-25-2006, 02:13 PM
#21
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 1,233
RE: shot gun slugs
I must say...AJ52... may have just given some of the best advice yet.
Allowing your barrel to cool is a must. Last year I was experiencing as much as 3 inches of stringing in my three shot groups when the shots were taken in quick succesion. A warm barrel will certainly result in decreased apparent accuracy.
Second, he is absolutely correct about sighting in at 50yds. Why? Simple, slugs have a very low ballistics coeffecient. In laymens terms that means that they are very succeptable to wind drift. In fact using the lightfields as a comparison,(which admittedly are at the low end of the sabot scale),They are 250% more succeptable to wind drift at 100ydsthan they are at 50 yds. In other words if you are experiencing 1in of wind drift at 50 yds, you would actually be experiencing 2.5 in of driftat 100yds. Of course that is assuming an absolutley constant crosswind which never occurs. Therefore for sighting purposes you want to eliminate wind drift from the equation as much as reasonable possible while still testing at a reasonable distance. Thus the reason for testing accuracy of specific slugs at 50yds. (Once a slug is decided upon then you can and should shoot at greater distances to gain experience with wind drift's effects on that particular slug).
Picture:
Here is a prime example of the effects of rapid shooting and a hot barrel on accuracy...notice that the "stringing" effect occurs in an almost perfectly linear pattern. (This group was shot in quick succesion on a day that the range temperatures were well over95 degrees.)
Allowing your barrel to cool is a must. Last year I was experiencing as much as 3 inches of stringing in my three shot groups when the shots were taken in quick succesion. A warm barrel will certainly result in decreased apparent accuracy.
Second, he is absolutely correct about sighting in at 50yds. Why? Simple, slugs have a very low ballistics coeffecient. In laymens terms that means that they are very succeptable to wind drift. In fact using the lightfields as a comparison,(which admittedly are at the low end of the sabot scale),They are 250% more succeptable to wind drift at 100ydsthan they are at 50 yds. In other words if you are experiencing 1in of wind drift at 50 yds, you would actually be experiencing 2.5 in of driftat 100yds. Of course that is assuming an absolutley constant crosswind which never occurs. Therefore for sighting purposes you want to eliminate wind drift from the equation as much as reasonable possible while still testing at a reasonable distance. Thus the reason for testing accuracy of specific slugs at 50yds. (Once a slug is decided upon then you can and should shoot at greater distances to gain experience with wind drift's effects on that particular slug).
Picture:
Here is a prime example of the effects of rapid shooting and a hot barrel on accuracy...notice that the "stringing" effect occurs in an almost perfectly linear pattern. (This group was shot in quick succesion on a day that the range temperatures were well over95 degrees.)
03-26-2006, 11:14 AM
#22
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: shot gun slugs
I normally agree with everything JCC has to say except on this point. We will have to agree to dissagree on this one again being that we have varying opinions, and they are just that opinions.
With my gun and many others I have helped others sight in, if you are going to shoot at 100 yards you best try the slugs at that distance. Most anything I try out of my H&R Ultra will group well at 50 yards. However with some loads the groups just fall apart at 100 yards. There is no way to know how that round in your rifle will group at longer distances with out actually shooting it at that distance. You can't just say since it was 1 inch at 50 it will be 2 inches at 100. I have shot shells that grouped 1 inch or under at 50 yards and wouldn't hit an 8 inch circle at 100-130 yards. With the right loads it's capable of 1-2 inch groups at those distances. I'm glad I didn't base it on a 50 yard sight in alone.
I will agree though that if you don't have perfect conditions when sighting in that doing the final adjustment on your scope at 50 yards may work better. That way you are not adjusting in wind drift at 100 yards. I don't adjust my scope when testing slugs though, I just shoot to see how well they group at the distances I want to hunt. I don't give much concern for where they impact, just what sort of groups I get. I can fix that later. I can try three different brands of slugs out of a gun and the groups will impact in three different places. I do the same thing with my Inline ML since the bullets and velocities are pretty simular. I zero my ML in at 130 and it's good for 150 yards with 350 grn Precision Rifle bullets. I have a better twist rate in my ML though.
Something I have noticed is that the slower twist barrels like yours (and mine) seem to do well up to about 1700 fps or so with 400 grain or so bullets or heavier. I haven't had much luck with the lighter high speed rounds available. Like said above though, every rifle is different so it wouldn't hurt to give them a try. Mine seems to like winchester platinums, I am going to try the slower federal barnes rounds when it gets nice out again. I tried the high velocity versions and they didn't work worth a darn in my rifle. They did ok at 50-75 yards, but the groups really fell apart at 100 yards and out.
My rifle does not care for lightfields either, although I didn't try every version they offer. I also agree with JCC that the newer style XTP type slugs are are better. They will most likely give better BC's and and the bullets are designed to perform better in game.
Just my opinions any way.
Paul
With my gun and many others I have helped others sight in, if you are going to shoot at 100 yards you best try the slugs at that distance. Most anything I try out of my H&R Ultra will group well at 50 yards. However with some loads the groups just fall apart at 100 yards. There is no way to know how that round in your rifle will group at longer distances with out actually shooting it at that distance. You can't just say since it was 1 inch at 50 it will be 2 inches at 100. I have shot shells that grouped 1 inch or under at 50 yards and wouldn't hit an 8 inch circle at 100-130 yards. With the right loads it's capable of 1-2 inch groups at those distances. I'm glad I didn't base it on a 50 yard sight in alone.
I will agree though that if you don't have perfect conditions when sighting in that doing the final adjustment on your scope at 50 yards may work better. That way you are not adjusting in wind drift at 100 yards. I don't adjust my scope when testing slugs though, I just shoot to see how well they group at the distances I want to hunt. I don't give much concern for where they impact, just what sort of groups I get. I can fix that later. I can try three different brands of slugs out of a gun and the groups will impact in three different places. I do the same thing with my Inline ML since the bullets and velocities are pretty simular. I zero my ML in at 130 and it's good for 150 yards with 350 grn Precision Rifle bullets. I have a better twist rate in my ML though.
Something I have noticed is that the slower twist barrels like yours (and mine) seem to do well up to about 1700 fps or so with 400 grain or so bullets or heavier. I haven't had much luck with the lighter high speed rounds available. Like said above though, every rifle is different so it wouldn't hurt to give them a try. Mine seems to like winchester platinums, I am going to try the slower federal barnes rounds when it gets nice out again. I tried the high velocity versions and they didn't work worth a darn in my rifle. They did ok at 50-75 yards, but the groups really fell apart at 100 yards and out.
My rifle does not care for lightfields either, although I didn't try every version they offer. I also agree with JCC that the newer style XTP type slugs are are better. They will most likely give better BC's and and the bullets are designed to perform better in game.
Just my opinions any way.
Paul
03-26-2006, 11:42 AM
#23
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 1,233
RE: shot gun slugs
As always Paul you provide great additional insight.
First, as is normal for most individuals to do, I often assume that most other guns owners shoot under similar conditions that I do.Obviously that is not the case. Where my range is located the average wind speed thought the year on a normal day is close to 10mph. Therefore it is a rare occasion that I shoot in calm wind conditions.
Second, another false assumption I made. Iwrongly assumedthat shooters would be aware of the possibility of the scenario you discussed. In a perfect world it would be ballistically impossible for a slug to be accurate within 1in at 50yds yet be as far off as 8in at 100yds assuming no wind deflection.
However, it is possible if the bullet is not compatible with the gun due to an improper rate of twist in the barrel. Basically inthose few rare cases the barreldoes not stabilize the slug properly. The result is a slug that will fly "normally" for a short distance before it destabilizes and begins to tumble end of end thereby absolutely destroying accuracy. I believe this is exactly the situationyou are desribing,Paul.
That being said, I have never personally experienced this phenomenon with my Savage and therefore failed to warn of its possibility.
I am very glad Paul brought it up.
First, as is normal for most individuals to do, I often assume that most other guns owners shoot under similar conditions that I do.Obviously that is not the case. Where my range is located the average wind speed thought the year on a normal day is close to 10mph. Therefore it is a rare occasion that I shoot in calm wind conditions.
Second, another false assumption I made. Iwrongly assumedthat shooters would be aware of the possibility of the scenario you discussed. In a perfect world it would be ballistically impossible for a slug to be accurate within 1in at 50yds yet be as far off as 8in at 100yds assuming no wind deflection.
However, it is possible if the bullet is not compatible with the gun due to an improper rate of twist in the barrel. Basically inthose few rare cases the barreldoes not stabilize the slug properly. The result is a slug that will fly "normally" for a short distance before it destabilizes and begins to tumble end of end thereby absolutely destroying accuracy. I believe this is exactly the situationyou are desribing,Paul.
That being said, I have never personally experienced this phenomenon with my Savage and therefore failed to warn of its possibility.
I am very glad Paul brought it up.
03-26-2006, 12:59 PM
#24
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 46
RE: shot gun slugs
My sons and I used slugs in PA, VA, and IL. We had five shotguns some smooth and some with rifled barrels and we went through a lot of what has been discussed. We had three 870's and two 1300's. During testing i was never satisfied with the sabots having a significant advantage over the regular Winchester and Remington slugs. I ended up going through two additional barrels for the 870's and one for the 1300's. The goal was to get four good shooting guns. Strange as it seems we ended up using the regular slugsfrom Remington for the 870's and Winchester slugs for the 1300's. There were some sabots that shot a little better but not significantly.
Where we hunted most shots are within 50 yards. We have been successful at shooting deer out to 75 yards with these guns.
Where we hunted most shots are within 50 yards. We have been successful at shooting deer out to 75 yards with these guns.
03-27-2006, 04:08 PM
#25
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Slower Lower Delaware 1st State
Posts: 1,776
RE: shot gun slugs
My reasoning for sighting in at 50 yrds with these lead slingers is 1st and foremost Gravity. Supersonic and Subsonic after approx 50yrds down range as Lightfield states it best - and then - Wind Drift.
I sight all my sluggers in 2" high at 50yrd (clean clean cool cool barrel). Then - go out to 100yrds on a calm dry day and maybe tweek scope elevation a bit - Thats it!
Now the biggy is compensating for shots at 25+ - yrds!
Only reason I sight in for 100yrds is 3-4 deer stands give me a prime opportunity out to 125+ yrds.
When you live in a Shotgun only state you get a little anal about this nit picky crap.
Alot of guys can't make a decent 75yrd shot with a 12 gauge slugger because they don't follow simple rules when setting up and shooting these Freekin Canons with a scope.
I sight all my sluggers in 2" high at 50yrd (clean clean cool cool barrel). Then - go out to 100yrds on a calm dry day and maybe tweek scope elevation a bit - Thats it!
Now the biggy is compensating for shots at 25+ - yrds!
Only reason I sight in for 100yrds is 3-4 deer stands give me a prime opportunity out to 125+ yrds.
When you live in a Shotgun only state you get a little anal about this nit picky crap.
Alot of guys can't make a decent 75yrd shot with a 12 gauge slugger because they don't follow simple rules when setting up and shooting these Freekin Canons with a scope.
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