Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?

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08-20-2002 | 07:07 AM

#81

silentassassin

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From: Memphis TN USA

RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Aside from the bow I shoot, I have no sponsors telling me what equipment I have to be seen using. The folks on your list do.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

So you are saying the folks on my list will compromise their morals and shoot marginal equipment for money? It is easy to make excuse after excuse for why carbons aren't good enough blah blah blah. But the experts say they are and millions of other bowhunters say they are. Today these pros could go to any company they wanted to and get sponsorship. Seriously who wouldn't sponsor Bob Foulkrod regardless of who they already sponsored. I think what it all boils down to is that your opinion is one of the minority. If that wasn't so we wouldn't have 1 company making aluminums and 5 making carbons including the one that makes aluminums because they were loosing too much market share. I respect your decision eventhough I don't share it but this whole forcing heavy aluminums down peoples throats, beating your head against the wall, it's no wonder peaple quit crap needs to go. If you want to shoot cedar logs then shoot them and show the rest of us the respect we(the majority of both amateurs and pros) deserve.

I would like to reiterate for all of you gentlemen once again that all the animals that you see Ted Nugent kill he blows right through everything from deer to elk sized game and he is shooting 53lbs of pull and carbon arrows. So for all of you that say that carbons don't penetrate and they don't get pass throughs, I invite you to watch the Spitit of the Wild with wildman rocker Ted Nugent and see for yourself just how well carbons penetrate. Don't believe the hype of how your bow magically gets harder to shoot because you choose to go to carbons rather than aluminums and gain 30fps. Any difference in noise can be taken care of with limb savers and whiskers. Trust me on this I shoot a 390 grain arrow and I had guys stand 50ft away and turn their back to me this weekend at the 3D range and they couldn't tell I shot until the arrow hit the target.

Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal."

08-20-2002 | 08:00 AM

#82

BobCo19-65

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RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>So you are saying the folks on my list will compromise their morals and shoot marginal equipment for money <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I would say that.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>If that wasn't so we wouldn't have 1 company making aluminums and 5 making carbons including the one that makes aluminums because they were loosing too much market share. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Is Easton a publicly held company. If so what are their ticker symbol?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I would like to reiterate for all of you gentlemen once again that all the animals that you see Ted Nugent kill he blows right through everything from deer to elk sized game and he is shooting 53lbs of pull and carbon arrows. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Very true, and what type of braodhead is he using? Cut on contact? Why?

08-20-2002 | 08:19 AM

#83

Slo-bo

Joined: Feb 2003

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From: Geneseo NY USA

RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would like to reiterate for all of you gentlemen once again that all the animals that you "SEE" Ted Nugent kill he blows right through everything from deer to elk sized game and he is shooting 53lbs of pull and carbon arrows.

Italics and capital letters mine. I am not making any accusations understand, but we are sometimes fed what someone wants us to see.
Just food for thought.

08-20-2002 | 08:32 AM

#84

Arthur P

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RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?

Silentassassin, I've watched 'Spirit of the Wild'... Once. That was enough for me, thank you. Raging up and down a muddy trail in a zebra striped 4-wheel drive with open headers is not exactly my idea of the spirit of the wild.

"So you are saying the folks on my list will compromise their morals and shoot marginal equipment for money?"

No, I'm not saying that. YOU are the one saying it, trying to put words in my mouth. I certainly do not appreciate it either.

I AM saying those people are sponsored by manufacturers to use certain products on their shows and videos, just like any other TV show or video series. You can interpret that in any fashion you so desire.

Anyone that hasn't been brain dead over the past 20 years has seen quite a number of professional hunters and pro shooters change brand loyalties based on dollars paid. Mathews based their entire marketing strategy on that phenomena.

You reckon Micheal Jordan has any great emotional ties with Hanes underwear? Don't you think he'd just as soon wear Fruit of the Loom if they came up with more money? You know the commercial I'm talking about. Jordan is wearing red briefs in the locker room so all the guys in the locker room are wearing red briefs the next day. The marketing gurus have your hide nailed to the tree, because your mindset is what they design marketing strategies around. "The pros use this, so there can't be anything better."

Besides, I defy you to go through this thread and show me ONE instance where I've said carbon arrows do not work. I have shown my reasons for believing that HEAVY arrows penetrate BETTER than LIGHT arrows, regardless of arrow material. I've even gone so far as saying that carbon arrows work better than aluminum arrows of equivalent weight.

I'm no fan of carbon arrows. There's no secret about that, but I've never said they don't work.

08-20-2002 | 08:32 AM

#85

silentassassin

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From: Memphis TN USA

RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I would say that. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Then you would be guilty of liable.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Is Easton a publicly held company. If so what are their ticker symbol?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I don't know, now what does that have to do with the conversation?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Very true, and what type of braodhead is he using? Cut on contact? Why?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I don't think the discussion at hand has anything to do with broadheads. The discussion is comparing arrows not which broadheads penetrate best. Arthurp didn't say light carbon arrows work great as long as you shoot cut on impact heads. He said "I think the whole light arrow/speed thing falls into the category of trying to 'keep fixing it until it breaks".

To further answer your question he shoots them because that's what he thinks are the best broadheads. He shot them when he was shooting aluminums too. Are we to draw a conclusion from that? Let's try to stick to the subject. We aren't saying a carbon with a judo point won't penetrate as well as aluminums with cut on impacts. Lets compare apples to apples. I am saying that my carbons with any style of broadhead will penetrate as well or better than any aluminum with the same type of broadhead while shot from the same bow with the same poundage and draw length, while providing me with a tougher shaft that will not bend and while helping my distance judgement by shooting20-30 fps faster.

Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal."

08-20-2002 | 09:01 AM

#86

BobCo19-65

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RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?

Wow, where do I start?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Then you would be guilty of liable.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I have no idea what you mean by that.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>If that wasn't so we wouldn't have 1 company making aluminums and 5 making carbons including the one that makes aluminums because they were loosing too much market share <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

You were the one that stated that Easton (I am assuming) was loosing market share. Market share means a company's Market Value in terms of Owner's Equity (which means a company has stock, which means a company is publically owned) as compared to another similar company. I didn't bring up market share, you did, so you tell me what it has to do with the conversation.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I don't think the discussion at hand has anything to do with broadheads. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

This is from my original post, BTW I started this topic.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Will a field point of equal weight penetrate as well as a broadhead shot out of the same bow? They both have the same KE. Of course not. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

So answer my question.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Today these pros could go to any company they wanted to and get sponsorship. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

So, why then didn't Ted go to Magnus and ask for a sponsorship with their standard blades? Magnus makes the blades for him. Personally, I have used standard Magnus 125 heads and Nugent 125 heads, and I see no difference at all in them except for the name. So, why does Ted have to have his name on attached with these blades?

08-20-2002 | 09:23 AM

#87

silentassassin

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From: Memphis TN USA

RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Wow, where do I start?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then you would be guilty of liable.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have no idea what you mean by that.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

That means you would be guilty of making comments that you could not prove in order to harm someones image or credibility in his or her profession.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If that wasn't so we wouldn't have 1 company making aluminums and 5 making carbons including the one that makes aluminums because they were loosing too much market share
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You were the one that stated that Easton (I am assuming) was loosing market share. Market share means a company's Market Value in terms of Owner's Equity (which means a company has stock, which means a company is publically owned) as compared to another similar company. I didn't bring up market share, you did, so you tell me what it has to do with the conversation.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Not in my Business finance classes. Market share is exactly that their share of the market, ie. there are 50 million arrows being sold and they are only selling 10 million of them or 20% whereas they sold 50% of the arrows being sold 5 years ago.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
So answer my question.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Today these pros could go to any company they wanted to and get sponsorship.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, why then didn't Ted go to Magnus and ask for a sponsorship with their standard blades? Magnus makes the blades for him. Personally, I have used standard Magnus 125 heads and Nugent 125 heads, and I see no difference at all in them except for the name. So, why does Ted have to have his name on attached with these blades?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Apparently because he thinks they are the best broadheads on the market and he wants his name to be associated with them. Just like Chuck Adams did with Hoyt some years back. He felt like they were the best so that who he decided to back. I assure you all the other bow manufacturers would have been tickled to have him backing them but he choose Hoyt, just like tead chose Magnus.

Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal."

08-20-2002 | 09:40 AM

#88

BobCo19-65

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RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?

silent,

You are obviously a person, who loves to get the last word in whether you are right or wrong, I could debate with you all day, but never get anywhere in your inaccurate statements. So I will drop it. Someday you may realize that there are others out there who may possible (I know it may sound crazy to you) have better knowledge of a subject (whatever that may be) and say something that conflicts with your thoughts and beliefs and be accurate.

I'm sure you will get the last word. Congratulations.

08-20-2002 | 09:56 AM

#89

amosgreg

Joined: Feb 2003

Posts: 328

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From: Hilliard OH USA

RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Apparently because he thinks they are the best broadheads on the market and he wants his name to be associated with them. Just like Chuck Adams did with Hoyt some years back. He felt like they were the best so that who he decided to back. I assure you all the other bow manufacturers would have been tickled to have him backing them but he choose Hoyt, just like tead chose Magnus.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
No!
He wants his name On them so he can collect the "market share" on each purchase.
Ted switched from a zebra striped Onieda Eagle bow - "The best bow out there" to a round wheel bow/cam the next year! Why? Because the deal was better!
Face it Silent this is ALL about Business and that is a Multi-Million dollar a year business plan and simple.

Carbon vs Aluminum When I go to the Easton site and compare hunting arrows I selected Hard cam, 100grain broadhead, 62-67# draw and 29" shafts the total arrow shaft weight for all the eastons that they presented me area as follows in order:
Shaft Size Shaft Model Shaft Weight
2512 S 298A
2413 S,75 302B
2315 S,75 338B
2219 S,75 399B
3-60 A/C/C 274
340 EVLN 299
360 RDLN 242

and what I see here is very interesting compared to the target chart for the same set-up
Shaft Size Shaft Model Shaft Weight
370-400R A/C/E 229
380R X10 257
2-49 HSPD 208
3-49-3-60 A/C/C 256
360 RDLN 242
2413 X7,75 302A
2314 X7 312B
2315 75 338A

Now what I find interesting is the weight difference between these 2 charts. In my conversation with TFOX he said his friend is now shooting 400 grain carbons. If these are the 400R's then we have a difference of over 90 grains in the shaft weight and that boys and girls adds up to almost 18 fps in that reduction alone!

I also think it is interesting that the 2314's show up on the target side but not the hunting side.

Greg

"Getting close to the game is the joy of Bowhunting for me, the harvest is a bonus."

Live 15 ft Python after eating a small Antelope!

08-20-2002 | 09:58 AM

#90

Straightarrow

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RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?

I noticed that the latest issue of Peterson's Bowhunting & Bow and Arrow Hunting, both have articles about using light, fast arrows for deer sized game.

I don't think either article is promoting shooting at the very lowest arrow weight limits, but they seem to be saying that lighter set-ups have a greater benefit when shooting at small animals the size of deer, when penetration is not much of a concern. I think it's pretty much a given, that when you get into the elk, moose and large bear category, that heavier arrows can start to shine a bit more.

I must admit that I like shooting both. For many years, I heaved logs with my recurve. No sights, no release, no bow quiver. There was a mesmerizing beauty to the flight of those arrows coming from an almost completely silent shot. I may go back in that direction in the future, but I would not do it because I can kill more game that way, it would be because it's fun.

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