TFOX, what I've gone and figured is that if you were trying to do that light, fast arrow and high KE stuff with very thin walled, light aluminum shafts, the arrows were likely collapsing and folding up on contact with the animal. And that is probably why you weren't getting full penetration. Like throwing a beercan at a brick wall. And then it's also just possible that, along about the time you switched over to carbon and mechs, you learned to tune your bow better (or the extra tuning forgiveness one gets with mechanicals helped you out), or you learned how to shoot better for better shot placement, or more experience taught you to make better shot selections.... Or a combination of all three.

If I were you, I certainly wouldn't be going out on a limb and insinuating that carbons and mechs are a magic bullet that will fix everyone's hunting problems. Along about the middle of the season we'll start seeing the dreaded 'mechanical broadhead failure" threads and half of 'em will start out their gripe with, "TFOX said...."

Well, my definition of moderate arrow weight doesn't jibe with yours, and so you go to AMO's chart for MINIMUM arrow weights. MINIMUM is nothing near MODERATE. Ain't that word 'minimum' just another way of saying 'right at too danged light'?

Again we have a difference in philosophy. You would switch arrows for different game. I use the same arrows for all game, for target shooting and for 3D. Life's complicated enough without tuning a bow for deer, then to elk, then to antelope or mulies. One size arrow means one tuning job, one target picture to get accustomed to and one trajectory to learn. With my setup I can hunt anything from cottontails and squirrels, to deer and antelope, to bison and brown bear with no changes.

At least you do admit that arrow weight and momentum are more important than speed and KE for penetration. Otherwise you wouldn't dream of switching to heavier arrows for larger game where you need more penetration.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Arthur,

Yes maybe the aluminums were too thin but they are most likely the most common sizes used today.2213 and 2314.I agree that I would have been much better served by a 16 series thickness or whatever thick walled shaft that was spined right would have served me better.

I am not alone with the aluminum issue.I know several short draw friends that have had the same problems.It seems that every shop around will set them up with a 2213,2314 or 2413.I beleive if they were putting 15's or 16's or higher,on their setup that results would be better.

I have hit deer well at 10 yards with 2213's and not had a passthru.At that time I wasn't doing my own tuning but I believe it was good but I don't know.Regardless,it should have gone thru,unless the tune was horrible.I would say that was at 7-8 grains per pound but that was a long time ago and really don't know for sure.I had a 2314 hit the back of the shoulder blade and the Thunderhead stopped the arrow dead in it's tracks when it twisted up.I have made that same shot since and the Rockets just twist right on around and out the deer.

The lighter (carbon) arrows are better on tissue IMO(as long as they are above the AMO minimums) but when it comes to busting bone,there is no question about the importance of momentum.I believe that if you can have enough momentum to get through bone(on deer) that having more velocity will result in more passthrus.



The minimums that AMO suggest are still much higher in weight than a lot of the carbons will provide so that is why I say they are still moderate weights and not minimums.I can possibly get arrows right in spine as low as 300 grains but I agree that is too light for me.




Edited by - tfox on 08/18/2002 23:03:33

&quot;The minimums that AMO suggest are still much higher in weight than a lot of the carbons will provide so that is why I say they are still moderate weights and not minimums.&quot;

I'm glad to see you disagree about what's minimum and moderate with the industry trade board as well. I was starting to feel a little picked on. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

However, I must point out that the minimums are based on how much weight it takes to prevent damaging bows or reducing their useful lifespan, not on arrow materials. And certainly, there has to be a little fudge factor thrown in to please the corporate liability lawyers. But I know I wouldn't want to be standing on the shooting line next to someone that was shooting lighter than AMO minimum. Been there and done that in the 80's. Got the scars to prove it.

Light carbons will indeed outperform light aluminum. No question about that. When light aluminums start bending and collapsing due to their inherent weakness, it uses up energy that a stronger, thick walled aluminum or carbon put into penetration.

However, I remain a devoted fan of Elmer Kieth and Fred Bear, firmly in the momentum camp.

Arthur, I'm one of those cheapskates!!! Well kinda. I bought my current bow to do EVERYTHING (spots, 3-D, AND HUNTING Alpine Stealth force) At least I'm one of the good cheapskates useing real hunting equipment for 3-D.
I almost NEVER tell anyone they are shooting too slow or don't have enough KE. What arrows speeds did indians have when shooting Bison?? In reality, most ANY hunting bow has plenty of ability to kill large game quickly and cleanly.
We have all heard the failed expandable stories....what we seem to forget are the failed fixed blade stories...and they are out there as well (Why do we care how tough a Muzzy is....if it's a fixed blade...shouldn't they ALL be tougher than a mech head?).
It has long been a belief that heavy arrows will out penetrate light fast arrows. This simply is NOT always the case. Yeah, If you hit a shoulder it would be nice to blow through it...I TRY not to hit the shoulder (hence the use of a target qualiuty set-up for hunting).
PERSONALLY, I shoot right at the AMO minimum, or below it (Some manufacturors go down to 5 gn/lb). I also use mech heads (but MIGHT pull out my Muzzys....hate to buy new when I have good heads in the box).
TFOX, I might have missed that post...after 4 pages...the screen started to get a bit blurry .
Buckskin, I know the article came out sometime last year...Late summer/ early fall....I'll try to find it. It had some REAL good data.
I am not trying to push speed on anyone, but I feel it is incorrect to put blind faith into old wisdom...I like evidence. YES&lt; the old idea of heavy arrows DOES work....all I'm saying is that faster lighter arrows ALSO work.....SOMETIMES better.

Tfox,
I might be blind.... Did you give the set-ups including length and broadhead weight for you short-draw set-ups. I am curous as to the specs of the aluminum 2213/2414's... your pals had problems with.
Due to the size it would be my understanding that the shorter the arrow the stronger the shaft as far as the aluminum shafts go.
Less leverage to cause bending/failure due to the size.

Also the poundage of the bows.


Arthur,
I agree wholeheartedly with the one set-up all conditions thought process. I am a K.I.S.S. hunter as far a equiptment goes. (It's tough to replace something that fails when you are in the bush!)

Thanks



Greg

&quot;Getting close to the game is the joy of Bowhunting for me, the harvest is a bonus.&quot;

Live 15 ft Python after eating a small Antelope!

Stealth, I haven't forgotten the failed fixed blade stories. Just like I told TFOX, I think they are mostly the direct result of using too wimpy of an arrow. Honestly - I have never had a broadhead failure of any kind in 40 years of bowhunting...well, except for those cheezy Satelite Aeroheads that shed all their blades when they fell on the ground that time<img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle>...but never a failure on an animal.

I want to make it perfectly clear that I do NOT intentionally aim at the shoulder blade. I think anyone that does that is an idiot. Problem is that, like I said before, stuff happens and Murphy LOVES to mess with bowhunters. I want that extra momentum, just in case.

About using a target quality rig for hunting... Wanna see all the field archery and 3D trophies I've accumulated using my hunting bows? Personally, I feel accuracy is more important in hunting than it is in target shooting. I would use a hyper fast, form-critical bow on the 3D range. I don't care all that much if I wound a McKenzie and lose 5 points. I want an extremely forgiving, accurate setup for hunting. Wounding and losing an animal is nothing I want to experience again. Bad enough to hit and lose a rabbit. I won't take the chance on a deer.

Okay, I'll say it for you. I'M NOT A GOOD ENOUGH SHOOTER to hunt with a speed bow. And a heck of a lot of others that are trying to hunt with 'em aren't good enough either. The difference between me and the ones that get frustrated and quit is that I've been around long enough to know about heavy arrows and forgiving bow designs. I enjoy my shooting time. When I was trying to shoot light and fast, I always felt like I was beating my head on a brick wall. No wonder people aren't joining archery clubs and shooting as much as they did 15 years ago. Except for the hardcore speed addicts, nobody has any fun shooting (or trying to shoot)that kind of stuff. There is, or should be, more to shooting a bow and arrow than numbers and physics and chronographs.

Yes, the idea of heavy arrows is an old one. It's worked just fine, in hunting and warfare, for thousands of years. And light arrows do work if you get them going fast enough and if nothing goes wrong and if you have the inherent talent to shoot the buggers. Personally, I think the whole light arrow/speed thing falls into the category of trying to 'keep fixing it until it breaks'.

Edited by - Arthur P on 08/19/2002 08:05:18

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Personally, I think the whole light arrow/speed thing falls into the category of trying to 'keep fixing it until it breaks'. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Well here is a short list of the names of some of those who are &quot;fixing it until it breaks&quot;

Myles Keller
The Primos Crew
Bob Foulkrod and
Ted Nugent

Some of the best bowhunters around are shooting light arrow setups are we to conclude that all of these obviously seasoned veterans are &quot;fixing it until it breaks&quot;. Wow that is some powerful smack talk when you start down talking the choices of the men that are known as some of the world's finest bowhunters. One could even assume that you think you know more about the sport than they do.

PS Ted Nugent is only pulling 53 lbs and he is blowing through everything he shoots at left and right(with carbons).



Protect your hunting rights, &quot;Spay or neuter a liberal.&quot;

&quot;One could even assume that you think you know more about the sport than they do.&quot;

Assumptions are dangerous things, but I do admit that I've picked up a little knowledge over a lifetime of shooting bows-n-arrows. I'll celebrate my 50th anniversary of shooting my first arrow in another 2 1/2 years.

Aside from the bow I shoot, I have no sponsors telling me what equipment I have to be seen using. The folks on your list do.

amosgreg

I am not sure about specifics but I know that one guy was using a 28 1/2&quot; draw at around 65# ,give or take.He was using Thunderheads or Muzzy's but I am pretty sure it was Thunderheads.I believe he was shooting a 2314 but I may be mistaken.Shot 2 deer with this setup and no passthrus.I have him setup with a 400 gr carbon now with Muzzy's.(See I don't push Rockets on everyone)Although I think he would be very happy with the Steelhead 100's.This will most likely be the next move.I just want to move him along slowly.This will be his 3rd year and he is a very good shot.Much better than I was after 3 years.He must have a good teacher.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>



Another friend has a 27 1/2&quot; draw and basically the same story.Difference is he doesn't work at it as hard as the first guy but he is also a very good shot out to 30 yards.


And then I would be the other.I have been shooting 28 1/2&quot; untill this year.I am now shooting 29&quot; after some advice from a certified coach.


Arthur,I have shot IBO 5 gr per and even lower but when shooting 28 1/2&quot; and 55#-58#.A person can do that with no problems,of course this was for 3-d only.I have never had equipment failure.At least not that I can remember.My problems are always with the operator.



Talking about having accurate hunting setups.This weekend I got my hunting rig ready and decided to take it to a shoot.Since I shoot open class all year I didn't feel right jumping into the hunter class ( they wouldn't let me anyway,silly ibo rules against 3&quot; fletching.)So I payed my money and was told to shoot just for fun from wherever I wanted to.The kids and I headed out and I came to the first stake and I decided then that I was shooting the back stake(semi pro).I got 10's on my first 8 targets and some of the shots were pushing 50 yards,including a 35 yard turkey.The rains were coming and I started hurrying things up to keep my kids from getting wet and shot 2, 8's and started getting wet and came on back.Not bad concidering I havn't shot a pin since hunting season.


I am one that test just about everything on my bow and become very familiar with it.Just today I was testing my bow at 40 yards with my Rockets.I was shooting a milk jug full of water with a piece of 2&quot; blueboard behind it.Without moving anything from my fieldpoints,I nailed the jug and blew thru it and the blueboard and picked the arrow up off the ground about 10' behind the board.The jug was only 1' off the ground or the arrow might have been hard to find.Does look like I am shooting about 1 1/2&quot; low at 40 with the Rockets.I'll have to fix that.

Not too bad for a 360 gr arrow at 268fps with an expandable on 61#'s.


Hey Arthur,I Hope to be able to make it down your way some day to show you how to use those light setups on deer. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

TFOX I thought the guys folding aluminums were shooting real short overdraw length shafts but the draw lengths seem to be normal to me.
As for the weight the 29 inch 2314's weight 309 grains and are the least stif shaft with 100 grain broadheads. If he shoots a hard cam they are underspined according to the Easton chart.
Is the 400 grain carbon the total weight fletched with broadhead?

Thanks



Greg

&quot;Getting close to the game is the joy of Bowhunting for me, the harvest is a bonus.&quot;

Live 15 ft Python after eating a small Antelope!