Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?
08-20-2002 | 11:03 AM
#91
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Sheboygan WI USA
RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?
First, BEFORE telling us WHY "Ted" switched from brand a to brand b....maybe you should ask Ted. Maybe he had a problem with his Onieda, and decided the benefits were not worth the problems....maybe it was just for money. Only Ted knows.
Judging by this thread, big or smaller game, nothing is a given when looking at heavy and light arrows (OK...2 lbs of KE isn't enough...given. then again5 fps isn't enough....given) and penetration.
Lastly, remember, magazine writers are humans...just like us....they just have a little better use of the english language (one would hope). Some of them can have the same trouble letting old ideas go. Just 'cus their PAID to write it, doesn't mean it's 100% accurate.
testing gives data, you may never have hunted a day in your life, but you could do tests, and get more data than 100 magazine articles that didn't use tests...just opinions.
Example. Chuck Adams...WOLRD WIDE known hunter. If you see him on a video, or read some of his articles, you might be led to believe that your set-up doesn't belong in the woods. He is VERY opinionated. And he has reason to be...it worked for HIM. That doesn't mean something else won't work, but sometimes Chuck makes it sound that way. Both Chuck, and Ted have killed a LOT of BIG game.....both set-ups are far from the others.
Use what works for YOU. Speed, KE, or momentum. If it's working, GREAT!
Judging by this thread, big or smaller game, nothing is a given when looking at heavy and light arrows (OK...2 lbs of KE isn't enough...given. then again5 fps isn't enough....given) and penetration.
Lastly, remember, magazine writers are humans...just like us....they just have a little better use of the english language (one would hope). Some of them can have the same trouble letting old ideas go. Just 'cus their PAID to write it, doesn't mean it's 100% accurate.
testing gives data, you may never have hunted a day in your life, but you could do tests, and get more data than 100 magazine articles that didn't use tests...just opinions.
Example. Chuck Adams...WOLRD WIDE known hunter. If you see him on a video, or read some of his articles, you might be led to believe that your set-up doesn't belong in the woods. He is VERY opinionated. And he has reason to be...it worked for HIM. That doesn't mean something else won't work, but sometimes Chuck makes it sound that way. Both Chuck, and Ted have killed a LOT of BIG game.....both set-ups are far from the others.
Use what works for YOU. Speed, KE, or momentum. If it's working, GREAT!
08-20-2002 | 11:26 AM
#92
Giant Nontypical
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RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?
Good post, Stealth. I shoot heavy arrows and fingers like Chuck, Magnus heads and barebow like The Nuge. With that combination, I figure I've got the perfect hunting setup. Of course, that's what I've always used since I was a little kid in the 50's.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Only difference is I use a compound instead of a stickbow now.
Straightarrow..."I don't think either article is promoting shooting at the very lowest arrow weight limits, but they seem to be saying that lighter set-ups have a greater benefit when shooting at small animals the size of deer, when penetration is not much of a concern. I think it's pretty much a given, that when you get into the elk, moose and large bear category, that heavier arrows can start to shine a bit more."
Exactly. I'm asking if you go to heavier arrows for heavier game, isn't that an admission that light and fast has it's limitations? If they have a harder time doing the job on a larger animal than a heavy arrow, how can the heavy arrow be any less effective on a deer?
Trajectory. Just for grins, I put sights on my bow, then tuned and sighted it in with Easton Carbonaeros at around 430 grains. Then I tuned and sighted in with my 2315's at 600 grains which fly some 30 fps slower. I used the gang adjustment to get my 20 pin on and then shot the 30 yard target. I did not have to move the 30 pin a bit. Dead on.
According to bowhunter surveys, the vast majority of deer are killed within 20 yards. Except for a small percentage, all the rest are killed within 30 yards. The trajectory advantage for light arrows at increased speed has been blown all out of proportion to what you actually get. It's only when you go beyond 30 yards that trajectory comes into play (the 2315's shot over a foot low with the 40 pin set for the Carbonaeros). But, since most bowhunters claim to limit their hunting shots to 30 yards and under...
Even if your bow is quiet with light arrows, it will be quieter with heavy ones and produce even less noise that might spook a deer. That also plays into penetration because an arrow penetrates better in a deer standing still than it does in one that is moving.
Good accuracy (another point we've all agreed is critical to good penetration) with a fixed blade head is a lot easier to get with a heavy arrow flying at 240 fps and less. Really good shots can bump speed way up and still get good accuracy with fixed blade heads at up around 300 fps, but those are guys that work hard on their shooting and tuning all year long. Nimrods trying to match that speed without the same skill level and dedication to shooting generally have to use mechanical heads to fix a problem that wouldn't exist if they increased arrow weight and slowed things down.
I can give a truckload of reasons for shooting slower with heavier arrows and only one for going light and fast... Trajectory. I've already shown that trajectory isn't really a factor in the great majority of bowhunting situations.
But, in order to save bandwidth, here are my top 5 reasons for suggesing most people to start shooting heavy arrows at slower speeds. 1) Easier tuning (or less frustration) 2) Quieter shooting 3) Having enough punch to still make a clean kill even when things don't go quite right 5) Better accuracy under tough hunting conditions (I could also say better accuracy with less demands on shooting skill).
In regards to number 5 - You all need to remember that we, here on this forum and the other forums, are mostly dedicated archers and bowhunters. For every one of us, there are hundreds, maybe thousands, of others that do not share our passion and level of commitment. Most fall into the category of 'drag the bow out and knock the cobwebs off, check the sights and go hunting.' To say they should shoot the same equipment at the same speeds that the professionals do is absolutely ludicrous.
Straightarrow..."I don't think either article is promoting shooting at the very lowest arrow weight limits, but they seem to be saying that lighter set-ups have a greater benefit when shooting at small animals the size of deer, when penetration is not much of a concern. I think it's pretty much a given, that when you get into the elk, moose and large bear category, that heavier arrows can start to shine a bit more."
Exactly. I'm asking if you go to heavier arrows for heavier game, isn't that an admission that light and fast has it's limitations? If they have a harder time doing the job on a larger animal than a heavy arrow, how can the heavy arrow be any less effective on a deer?
Trajectory. Just for grins, I put sights on my bow, then tuned and sighted it in with Easton Carbonaeros at around 430 grains. Then I tuned and sighted in with my 2315's at 600 grains which fly some 30 fps slower. I used the gang adjustment to get my 20 pin on and then shot the 30 yard target. I did not have to move the 30 pin a bit. Dead on.
According to bowhunter surveys, the vast majority of deer are killed within 20 yards. Except for a small percentage, all the rest are killed within 30 yards. The trajectory advantage for light arrows at increased speed has been blown all out of proportion to what you actually get. It's only when you go beyond 30 yards that trajectory comes into play (the 2315's shot over a foot low with the 40 pin set for the Carbonaeros). But, since most bowhunters claim to limit their hunting shots to 30 yards and under...
Even if your bow is quiet with light arrows, it will be quieter with heavy ones and produce even less noise that might spook a deer. That also plays into penetration because an arrow penetrates better in a deer standing still than it does in one that is moving.
Good accuracy (another point we've all agreed is critical to good penetration) with a fixed blade head is a lot easier to get with a heavy arrow flying at 240 fps and less. Really good shots can bump speed way up and still get good accuracy with fixed blade heads at up around 300 fps, but those are guys that work hard on their shooting and tuning all year long. Nimrods trying to match that speed without the same skill level and dedication to shooting generally have to use mechanical heads to fix a problem that wouldn't exist if they increased arrow weight and slowed things down.
I can give a truckload of reasons for shooting slower with heavier arrows and only one for going light and fast... Trajectory. I've already shown that trajectory isn't really a factor in the great majority of bowhunting situations.
But, in order to save bandwidth, here are my top 5 reasons for suggesing most people to start shooting heavy arrows at slower speeds. 1) Easier tuning (or less frustration) 2) Quieter shooting 3) Having enough punch to still make a clean kill even when things don't go quite right 5) Better accuracy under tough hunting conditions (I could also say better accuracy with less demands on shooting skill).
In regards to number 5 - You all need to remember that we, here on this forum and the other forums, are mostly dedicated archers and bowhunters. For every one of us, there are hundreds, maybe thousands, of others that do not share our passion and level of commitment. Most fall into the category of 'drag the bow out and knock the cobwebs off, check the sights and go hunting.' To say they should shoot the same equipment at the same speeds that the professionals do is absolutely ludicrous.
08-20-2002 | 11:44 AM
#93
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: HENDERSON KY USA
RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?
Amosgreg
The arrows that my friend used were not 29" long.They were 28" long and the spine was perfect because that was the first thing I checked.I put his bow in my program and got the perfect spine.
Please don't start that stuff about spines and charts because they are just a guideline and are not always right.Close,yes but not perfect.
My friend is not using an Easton arrow and I don't know why you made that assumption.For your info he is using an orange Nitro Stinger at 27 1/2" with 4" AAE vanes with full length EZE crests.They are tipped with 100 gr heads and the inserts weighs 24 grains.I believe the actuall weight was 396gr.Yes I rounded up but big deal.It was easier to type.Foc is 12% and they fly like darts.
This is the same arrow I hunt with but I have unibushings installed with 3" vanes and EZE crest wraps cut down to 6".I use a 75 gr point and get 11% foc.They weigh in at 360gr.
I am very competant with arrow selections,more so than most.That is why about every night I have people coming by to get their hunting setup ready.
It sure looked to me as if you were saying that I was lying and I sure don't appreciate it.If not then I am sorry.If you go back and look you will see that I wasn't sure about the arrow but I know it was either a 2413 or 2314.You can see why I may not remeber for sure but I know what I am doing and have done enough to no what the right spine is or isn't.
The arrows that my friend used were not 29" long.They were 28" long and the spine was perfect because that was the first thing I checked.I put his bow in my program and got the perfect spine.
Please don't start that stuff about spines and charts because they are just a guideline and are not always right.Close,yes but not perfect.
My friend is not using an Easton arrow and I don't know why you made that assumption.For your info he is using an orange Nitro Stinger at 27 1/2" with 4" AAE vanes with full length EZE crests.They are tipped with 100 gr heads and the inserts weighs 24 grains.I believe the actuall weight was 396gr.Yes I rounded up but big deal.It was easier to type.Foc is 12% and they fly like darts.
This is the same arrow I hunt with but I have unibushings installed with 3" vanes and EZE crest wraps cut down to 6".I use a 75 gr point and get 11% foc.They weigh in at 360gr.
I am very competant with arrow selections,more so than most.That is why about every night I have people coming by to get their hunting setup ready.
It sure looked to me as if you were saying that I was lying and I sure don't appreciate it.If not then I am sorry.If you go back and look you will see that I wasn't sure about the arrow but I know it was either a 2413 or 2314.You can see why I may not remeber for sure but I know what I am doing and have done enough to no what the right spine is or isn't.
08-20-2002 | 11:50 AM
#94
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RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Exactly. I'm asking if you go to heavier arrows for heavier game, isn't that an admission that light and fast has it's limitations? If they have a harder time doing the job on a larger animal than a heavy arrow, how can the heavy arrow be any less effective on a deer? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Arthur,
I agree with most of what you said in your last post, but what we are talking about are small differences. The reasons a heavy arrow may be less effective on deer are very slight. Penetration is no concern for me inside of 20 yards. A 430 grain set-up in a 70 bow is going to blow through the shoulder of most deer. At least it has for me. Still penetration edge goes to the heavy arrow when hitting bone. Trajectory may only be an inch or two flatter on a light arrow, in typical bowhunting ranges, but it's still an advantage when judging distances - even if only slightly. The other thing speed does, is it gives a string jumping deer less chance of escape when inside of 15 yards. Once again, I'm not talking about huge differences, but it is a slight advantage.
I've shot both heavy and light arrows, recurve and compound for over 30 years and my gut feeling is that I have more confidence with a lighter arrow out of my compound. When shooting a recurve, I have more confidence with a heavier arrow.
Arthur,
I agree with most of what you said in your last post, but what we are talking about are small differences. The reasons a heavy arrow may be less effective on deer are very slight. Penetration is no concern for me inside of 20 yards. A 430 grain set-up in a 70 bow is going to blow through the shoulder of most deer. At least it has for me. Still penetration edge goes to the heavy arrow when hitting bone. Trajectory may only be an inch or two flatter on a light arrow, in typical bowhunting ranges, but it's still an advantage when judging distances - even if only slightly. The other thing speed does, is it gives a string jumping deer less chance of escape when inside of 15 yards. Once again, I'm not talking about huge differences, but it is a slight advantage.
I've shot both heavy and light arrows, recurve and compound for over 30 years and my gut feeling is that I have more confidence with a lighter arrow out of my compound. When shooting a recurve, I have more confidence with a heavier arrow.
08-20-2002 | 11:58 AM
#95
Nontypical Buck
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From: Memphis TN USA
RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>They definitely show how advertising campains have much more influence in equipment selection than any other criteria. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
How can you even say that without asking them for their opions. All that has been just proven is that you are too hard headed to admit that others have a different opinion than you.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>You are obviously a person, who loves to get the last word in whether you are right or wrong, <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Kind of like you are doing with your last post.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I could debate with you all day, but never get anywhere in your inaccurate statements. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Yes and I know a proverb that explains this:
A fool changes his mind never.....A wiseman often(not verbatem)
Unlike you I am well aware that there are plenty of others out there that know more than me, however I am open minded enough to concede that there is more than one way to accomplish the same task. If you will notice I am not bashing heavy aluminums I am merely defending carbons. You made up your mind that you're right and now that you find out that the experts don't agree then you start copping excuses. You are right no amount of arguing is ever going to convince you because you are far to smart to change your mind.
Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal."
Edited by - silentassassin on 08/20/2002 13:10:24
How can you even say that without asking them for their opions. All that has been just proven is that you are too hard headed to admit that others have a different opinion than you.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>You are obviously a person, who loves to get the last word in whether you are right or wrong, <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Kind of like you are doing with your last post.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I could debate with you all day, but never get anywhere in your inaccurate statements. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Yes and I know a proverb that explains this:
A fool changes his mind never.....A wiseman often(not verbatem)
Unlike you I am well aware that there are plenty of others out there that know more than me, however I am open minded enough to concede that there is more than one way to accomplish the same task. If you will notice I am not bashing heavy aluminums I am merely defending carbons. You made up your mind that you're right and now that you find out that the experts don't agree then you start copping excuses. You are right no amount of arguing is ever going to convince you because you are far to smart to change your mind.
Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal."
Edited by - silentassassin on 08/20/2002 13:10:24
08-20-2002 | 12:08 PM
#96
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Memphis TN USA
RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> No!
He wants his name On them so he can collect the "market share" on each purchase.
Ted switched from a zebra striped Onieda Eagle bow - "The best bow out there" to a round wheel bow/cam the next year! Why? Because the deal was better!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I switched from High Country to Bowtech this year. A few years back I switched from Oneida to Hoyt. I bought what I thought was the bow for me and then I found out it wasn't so I switched. I switch bows every year except for this one and I have finally found the bow that I have been looking for my whole life. I suspect Ted may have been doing the same. This is like the Legacy thread the other day, just because you have a (insert brand name) doesn't mean it is a good bow. Like Pinwheel said they all make duds from time to time. I don't just buy from brand name I buy the bow that fits me best. As far as I am concerned Ted did the same so he went out and switched his sponsorship deal.
Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal."
Edited by - silentassassin on 08/20/2002 13:12:54
He wants his name On them so he can collect the "market share" on each purchase.
Ted switched from a zebra striped Onieda Eagle bow - "The best bow out there" to a round wheel bow/cam the next year! Why? Because the deal was better!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I switched from High Country to Bowtech this year. A few years back I switched from Oneida to Hoyt. I bought what I thought was the bow for me and then I found out it wasn't so I switched. I switch bows every year except for this one and I have finally found the bow that I have been looking for my whole life. I suspect Ted may have been doing the same. This is like the Legacy thread the other day, just because you have a (insert brand name) doesn't mean it is a good bow. Like Pinwheel said they all make duds from time to time. I don't just buy from brand name I buy the bow that fits me best. As far as I am concerned Ted did the same so he went out and switched his sponsorship deal.
Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal."
Edited by - silentassassin on 08/20/2002 13:12:54
08-20-2002 | 12:14 PM
#97
Giant Nontypical
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RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?
Tradeoffs and personal preference, Straightarrow. Is it better to have an arrow get there a few thousandths of a second sooner to catch a string jumping deer a little better, or to have a slightly quieter setup that has less chance of spooking it in the first place? Is it better to have an inch better trajectory than to have a somewhat better chance of blowing through bone?
I've also shot both and don't have the confidence in the light arrow. Main reasons are I don't like the extra work it takes to properly tune them; I don't like how my bows feel when shooting them; I don't like the extra noise I get with them; I don't like the numbers I see when comparing the ballistics charts on them compared to my logs; And the kicker, I've had too much success over the years with my big arrows to change now.
For me, light arrows are a solution to a problem that simply does not exist.
I do agree that you MUST use what you have confidence in. Penetration potential doesn't mean diddly if you never turn loose of the string.
Edited by - Arthur P on 08/20/2002 13:16:26
I've also shot both and don't have the confidence in the light arrow. Main reasons are I don't like the extra work it takes to properly tune them; I don't like how my bows feel when shooting them; I don't like the extra noise I get with them; I don't like the numbers I see when comparing the ballistics charts on them compared to my logs; And the kicker, I've had too much success over the years with my big arrows to change now.
For me, light arrows are a solution to a problem that simply does not exist.
I do agree that you MUST use what you have confidence in. Penetration potential doesn't mean diddly if you never turn loose of the string.
Edited by - Arthur P on 08/20/2002 13:16:26
08-20-2002 | 12:26 PM
#98
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Giant Nontypical
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RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?
Arthur, I would really have to agree with just about everything you have said. I'm really interested in hearing your hunting setup, I don't believe that you have ever given it yet. I have to say that I have shot both heavy and light arrows. Last year, I used the light carbons and really was not fully satisfied with using them. Like you said, bow tuning, and accuracy was a problem for me. I swore that I would go back to the heavy aluminums even while I was using them. I didn't want to change then because I had everything set up and I practiced with only carbons all last summer. But right after the season last year, I went back to the heavy aluminum arrows. And I am very happy going into this season with them. BTW, I did shoot two deer last year with the carbons, one was a pass through the other was not. But on the non-pass though, the deer died in its track. I have had nothing but pass throughs on the heavier arrows.
Edited by - BobCo19-65 on 08/20/2002 13:29:00
Edited by - BobCo19-65 on 08/20/2002 13:29:00
08-20-2002 | 12:38 PM
#99
Giant Nontypical
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RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?
<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle> Silentassassin, what HAVE you been smoking? You've combined something that I posted with a couple things someone else posted then made insulting comments. Who are you talking to, anyway? Would it be possible for you to refrain from the personal attacks while you 'defend carbon arrows', for whatever reason you seem to feel it's necessary?
Bobco, my main bow is a 60 pound Hoyt ProTec, LXPro limbs and Accuwheels, fingers, no sights, Cavalier MicroFlyte rest, Simms Enhancer 2000 fronted by a 7" Shockwave hydraulic stabilizer, 600 grain XX75 2315's with Magus I heads @ 215 fps.
Forgot to add that I shoot 3-under and my draw length with this style is 33 1/2".
Edited by - Arthur P on 08/20/2002 13:43:26
Edited by - Arthur P on 08/20/2002 13:46:53
Bobco, my main bow is a 60 pound Hoyt ProTec, LXPro limbs and Accuwheels, fingers, no sights, Cavalier MicroFlyte rest, Simms Enhancer 2000 fronted by a 7" Shockwave hydraulic stabilizer, 600 grain XX75 2315's with Magus I heads @ 215 fps.
Forgot to add that I shoot 3-under and my draw length with this style is 33 1/2".
Edited by - Arthur P on 08/20/2002 13:43:26
Edited by - Arthur P on 08/20/2002 13:46:53
08-20-2002 | 12:58 PM
#100
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Giant Nontypical
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RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?
Wow, 33 1/2 draw shooting fingers. It must be hard finding bows to accomidate your draw. I know that I am very restricted withmy 33 in ch draw with my compound. With my recurve, I shoot fingers (two under) and have a 31.5 inch draw.
FWIW. I shot a Parker Feather Mag II 70 pounds, 33 inch draw, GKF Premier Drop away, I use Easton 2613 XX78 33" arrows four vaned, with a 145 Grain Stos Two Bladed Head (made by Magnus, with a 3:1 ratio), and a 42 grain adapter (@700 grains).
FWIW. I shot a Parker Feather Mag II 70 pounds, 33 inch draw, GKF Premier Drop away, I use Easton 2613 XX78 33" arrows four vaned, with a 145 Grain Stos Two Bladed Head (made by Magnus, with a 3:1 ratio), and a 42 grain adapter (@700 grains).