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Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams

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Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams

Old 07-25-2004, 01:19 PM
  #1  
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Default Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams

What is wrong with today's bowhunting consumers?

I know a whole bunch of you readers are die hard ad reading Mathews fans. Heck, I was also one too. I work at an archery pro shop and have spent much of my life there. (I can shoot any bow that I want) Why do so many archers prefer traditional single cam technology? Here is why I think they do.

1. The profit mark-up on Mathews for dealers is about 3 times what a Hoyt is.
2. Mathews spends more on advertising/marketing than any other company.
3. They once came out with an innovative product and consumers get tunnel vision.

Anyways,

the fact of the matter is traditional single cams do not provide level nock travel.

Hybrid Cam & 1/2's do. AS do dual cam bows.

This doesn't mean that single cams are not accurate becasue they can be with a good shooter, they are just not as accurate as Hybrid's.

I am talking about shooting them off of a machine.

A single cam string stretches a lot more than a Hybrid cam's string. I'v seen single cam strings stretch as much as 1 1/2 inches. Thanks Zebra!

In my opinion single cams are on their way out and hybrids are in.


Let me know what you guys think. I need some traditional single cammers to beat up on!
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Old 07-25-2004, 01:52 PM
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Default RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams

man, are you just trying to start a flame war or what?

i hope you brought your fire extinguisher...

[&:]
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Old 07-25-2004, 02:35 PM
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Default RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams

Okay, I'll bite.

Why do so many archers prefer traditional single cam technology? Here is why I think they do.

1. The profit mark-up on Mathews for dealers is about 3 times what a Hoyt is.
2. Mathews spends more on advertising/marketing than any other company.
3. They once came out with an innovative product and consumers get tunnel vision.
In my opinion single cams are simpler and more likely to stay shootable, even if the string stretches a bit (which isn't a concern with a well made string today). Bowhunters want simple, because they know very little about the technological part of this industry.

the fact of the matter is traditional single cams do not provide level nock travel.
An even more important fact is that this has never been proven to be important. There is also a profound disagreement in how one should go about measuring this.

Hybrid Cam & 1/2's do. AS do dual cam bows.
Not necessarily. And although some might, what's the point? I've seen these supposedly level nock travel bows, with such poor cam alignment that the arrow is doing anything but moving in a straight line while it remains on the string. There are many factors that go into making a bow forgiving and no one has shown me that "straight and level nock travel" is anything more than a minor issue.

This doesn't mean that single cams are not accurate becasue they can be with a good shooter, they are just not as accurate as Hybrid's. I am talking about shooting them off of a machine.
I respectfully disagree. When shot out of a Hooter Shooter, a completely out-of-tune bow, of any type, will repeated shoot the same arrow repeatedly into the same hole.

A single cam string stretches a lot more than a Hybrid cam's string. I'v seen single cam strings stretch as much as 1 1/2 inches. Thanks Zebra!
This is a non-issue to anyone who wants to make it that way. A well made single cam string will not stretch 1/16" in 20,000 shots with today's materials. I've made them and personally taken the measurements to come up with these numbers.


In my opinion single cams are on their way out and hybrids are in.
I doubt it, but we're all welcome to our opinions.


Let me know what you guys think. I need some traditional single cammers to beat up on!
I currently shoot a hybrid, but you can take your best shot anyway!
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Old 07-25-2004, 02:59 PM
  #4  
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Default RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams

I'm short on time, but I can say after owning a couple dozen singles (actually probably closer to 35 or so), and nearly a dozen hybrids (whether CPS type or C.5 type) and god knows how many duals, I still prefer the single cam overall. Biggest reasons? less recoil/vibe and noise regardless of platform, and they "hold" better for me. They are not perfect, but overall I prefer them.

Second, you are incorrect in your statement about nock travel, several single track idler/ dual feed singles have straight and level nock travel. Mathews SL & HP cams mostly, and PSE's NRG. Whether tested static in a machine or dynamically w/ high speed video (as Straightarrow says, there is conflict about which method is more "accurate"). C.5 type hybrids usually do not show straight and level nock travel. Some CPS type cams will show less than optimum nock travel depending on how they are set.

And if you don't shoot a string loop the point is moot. No-one who shoots under the nock is getting straight and level nock travel.

Finally, limbs have just as much to do w/ nock travel as anything. I suspect a great number of folks shooting CPS hybrids are not getting perfect nock travel either because of less expensive /poorly matched limbs.

What is wrong with today's bowhunting consumers?
I don't know...you are a prime example though...worried about berating others' choice of equipment instead of shooting your own.

Might wanna get all your ducks in a row before you start trolling.
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Old 07-25-2004, 03:27 PM
  #5  
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Default RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams

Single vs hybrids vs duals... YAWN

Where's an Onieda dealer? [8D]
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Old 07-25-2004, 09:30 PM
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Default RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams

who really cares? They all can shoot great....better than we can.

Anyway this topic has been beat to death. I shoot single cams because I like the way they feel & shoot better than any other cam I have shot. I think thats all that really matters.
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Old 07-28-2004, 12:21 AM
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Default RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams

Hey Jeff B.-

I don't know...you are a prime example though...worried about berating others' choice of equipment instead of shooting your own.

Might wanna get all your ducks in a row before you start trolling.


Your ignorance blocked your vision to see the fact that I wasn't berating others' choice of equipment, but rather bring to light the inaccuracies of traditional single cams. After all, I think consumers have a right to know the truth about the technology they are buying. Lord knows, the MAthews 30 page ads won't tell them.

And I don't even know who the joker is that said that single cams shoot smoother than any other platform out there. (Oh yeah, that was you Jeff!) You mean to tell me that A Mathews Outback shoots with less vibration than a Hoyt XTech with everything else being the same. Let me guess, you are voting for Kerry aren't you?

Our democatic friend also says-

Finally, limbs have just as much to do w/ nock travel as anything. I suspect a great number of folks shooting CPS hybrids are not getting perfect nock travel either because of less expensive /poorly matched limbs

Do you also suspect that single cammers are succeptible to this? Probably not, huh?

Until MAthews starts putting pre stretched Stone Mountain strings on their bows, excessive string stretch will continue to be a problem. Remember, they do not give you the premium string. Neither does Hoyt, but then again their string is shorter so it is not prone to stretch as much.

Again, without all of the variables that you guys like to throw into the mix, Any string that is released closer to the center of the string itself with symetrical (tuned) cams will produce straighter nock travel. Any respected technical advisor agrees with this statement.

It seems to me that there would be more of a load on the lower limb than the upper on a bow that has a cam on the bottom and a wheel on the top.
Like JeffB says, if one limb is weaker it would cause uneven nock travel. With the load on the limbs of a single cam not balanced, you get uneven nock travel.

*****NEWS FLASH*****
Doesn't it also seem unusual that Hoyt shooters have already broken 3 tournament records with the Cam & 1/2? I know you are going to say that it is just the shooter, but look at the ratio of Hoyt to Mathews shooters. Hoyt has proven they are far more efficient at winning tournaments with the Cam &1/2. No one can dispute this.


If you feel that this topic has been beat to death, then do not reply! There are a lot of other forums that you can entertain yourself on.
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Old 07-28-2004, 01:56 AM
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Default RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams

1. The profit mark-up on Mathews for dealers is about 3 times what a Hoyt is.
Really? And yet Hoyts higher end bows cost the same as Mathews higher end bows for the consumer?[]

2. Mathews spends more on advertising/marketing than any other company.
Other than putting them (Mathews) at the top in sales and obviously annoying some people , what does that have to do with solo cam -vs- hybrid cams?

3. They once came out with an innovative product and consumers get tunnel vision.
So I guess you think all these consumers with "tunnel vision" just buy Mathews because of the ads? Or maybe just because it seems everyone else is shooting a Mathews? Do you think all Mathews owners just go out and buy any Mathews without testing other bows? Wake up!

the fact of the matter is traditional single cams do not provide level nock travel.

Hybrid Cam & 1/2's do. AS do dual cam bows.
Really? Well drop my drawers and smack my willy! I would have guessed my 3d scores would have dropped after selling my Hoyt double cam and switching to the Mathews , why with all that "level nock travel" I gave up , and my scores improved.[]

This doesn't mean that single cams are not accurate becasue they can be with a good shooter, they are just not as accurate as Hybrid's.

I am talking about shooting them off of a machine.
I've seen the Icon , Ovation , Mq1 , LX , and the Outback shoot thru the same hole from the HS , I cant imagine being any more accurate than that. Now if only we could use the "machine" for hunting.

A single cam string stretches a lot more than a Hybrid cam's string. I'v seen single cam strings stretch as much as 1 1/2 inches. Thanks Zebra!
I've had double cam strings stretch on just as much!
Thanks Winners Choice for eliminating that headache!

In my opinion single cams are on their way out and hybrids are in.
Your certainly entitled to your opinionated...ooops..opinion.

Let me know what you guys think. I need some traditional single cammers to beat up on!
I dont think much of it anymore to tell you the truth. Ive heard it countless times from other Mathews bashers , it's getting pretty boring!

If you feel that this topic has been beat to death, then do not reply! There are a lot of other forums that you can entertain yourself on.
Likewise! Other forums , most of which I assume you've been banned from?



Just exactly what is a "traditional single cammer"?
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Old 07-28-2004, 02:01 AM
  #9  
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Default RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams

And I don't even know who the joker is that said that single cams shoot smoother than any other platform out there. (Oh yeah, that was you Jeff!) You mean to tell me that A Mathews Outback shoots with less vibration than a Hoyt XTech with everything else being the same. Let me guess, you are voting for Kerry aren't you?
X-MAN.

If you read Jeff's reply again he said.

I'm short on time, but I can say after owning a couple dozen singles (actually probably closer to 35 or so), and nearly a dozen hybrids (whether CPS type or C.5 type) and god knows how many duals, I still prefer the single cam overall. Biggest reasons? less recoil/vibe and noise regardless of platform, and they "hold" better for me. They are not perfect, but overall I prefer them.
That in HIS experience that the singles held better for HIM and that HE prefers them.

I see no reason for an attack on Jeff when he was is talking about HIS experience with the different bows he has owned.

Just remember you are entitled to your opinions as others are entitled to theirs.

We dont need members flaming other members.
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Old 07-28-2004, 06:12 AM
  #10  
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Default RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams

ORIGINAL: X_MAN

Hey Jeff B.-
Your ignorance blocked your vision to see the fact that I wasn't berating others' choice of equipment, but rather bring to light the inaccuracies of traditional single cams.
Hmm..I guess there's a fine line between "bringing to light inaccuracies" and "beating up on single-cammers"

And I don't even know who the joker is that said that single cams shoot smoother than any other platform out there. (Oh yeah, that was you Jeff!) You mean to tell me that A Mathews Outback shoots with less vibration than a Hoyt XTech with everything else being the same.
I have an X-tec, and an Outback on the way. There is no doubt apples to apples the Outback has less recoil. Vibration is another ball of wax, and the X_Tec has slightly less, not less enough to discount the fact that even with Xtreme limbsavers it has more recoil than the Outback (and it has less to do with the cam than the limb angles). IME with Darton, Hoyt, and Martin hybrids, Any high end Mathews will have less recoil and has substantially less vibe than Martin & Darton regardless of cam style.

Let me guess, you are voting for Kerry aren't you?
You need some work on your trolling, your inexperience shows here youngin'

Do you also suspect that single cammers are succeptible to this? Probably not, huh?
Absolutely, any bow is. If you would take a minute and think (try it, it works wonders) my point was folks who make a big deal about getting level nock travel with thier "superior" cam system (kinda like you) probably are not getting it.

Until Mathews starts putting pre stretched Stone Mountain strings on their bows, excessive string stretch will continue to be a problem. Remember, they do not give you the premium string. Neither does Hoyt, but then again their string is shorter so it is not prone to stretch as much.
BS! Hoyt strings are absolutely pitiful. Although I'm no big fan of Zebras, I'd take a Zebra over the garbage Hoyt puts on thier bows anyday of the week. End and center servings are horrid on Hoyt strings and they twist and twist and twist. That said I think both companies need to follow in BowTechs shoes and get with the program as far as strings are concerned.

Again, without all of the variables that you guys like to throw into the mix, Any string that is released closer to the center of the string itself with symetrical (tuned) cams will produce straighter nock travel. Any respected technical advisor agrees with this statement.
Yes. "straighter". But it doesn't guarantee straight and level. You should test the C.5 some more, because for the most part it ain't got straight nock travel, let alone level. With knowledge and some work, you can make it better, but Hoyt's initial C.5 ads are as full of BS as the initial Mathews ads.

Like JeffB says, if one limb is weaker it would cause uneven nock travel. With the load on the limbs of a single cam not balanced, you get uneven nock travel.
Not in all cases, just like not in all cases are hybrids giving you straight and level nock travel.The design of the cam has more to do with nock travel on a single cam all else being equal. the vast majority of modular singles exhibit poor nock travel (static), and non module cams show better (static) nock travel than any C.5 I've seen and are as good or better than most dual cams. You need to do some more testing.

*****NEWS FLASH*****
No one can dispute this. Blah blah blah...assorted talking out one's rear
*****NEWSFLASH*****

This is the same BS most people cry about with Mathews, but now that Hoyt is having a good year, I guess that doesn't matter Pot, meet the kettle.

And a sincere Thank You for pointing out that it is the bow that wins all the tournaments, and not the shooter. I cannot wait to buy another Hoyt so I can start whipping Hopkins' A$$ without any actual improvement in my own ability Anybody who really know anything about archery does not attribute cam type to shooting prowess, no more than Tiger Woods is only as good as the clubs he uses. :Yawn:

If you feel that this topic has been beat to death, then do not reply! There are a lot of other forums that you can entertain yourself on.
Agreed, why don't you go find one?

For a newbie you sure are making a lousy first impression. Thanks for telling all us regulars here to take a hike so you can piss in our pool


EDIT: BTW, I'm not going to get into a pissing match with someone who doesn't have all his/her facts straight..it's a waste of my time and everyone elses. You should check out ArcheryTalk, there's plenty of other people there who would love to argue with you who don't have their facts straight either....birds of a feather, and all that.
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