Straightarrow

I agree with TFOX on this one. I don't own a laser, but the best shop for tuning in my area, has one. It sits in a drawer unused. I remember when he got the laser and was using it. One day, I noticed he was eyeballing his initial setups, so I asked why he wasn't using the laser. He said he couldn't trust it and had to fine tune some bows on the range. Since he couldn't rely on it for all bows, he found that he comfirmed the setup on the range for all bows, and was wasting time with it. He also said with a particular manufacturer, 95% of the bows will have centershot within about 1/32" of a particular distance, so he would just check it with a tape measure. He would attach a rest and a nocking point and have the bow real close within about 2 minutes.

I found that a guy who does this for a living can eyeball or measure a setup extremely close before range tuning, and a guy who only occassionally has to setup a bow, is spending a lot to save a few minutes of adjustments before going to the range for final tuning.

Personally, I just can't imagine trusting the tune, without going to the range to verify it, so why bother? One thing for sure, you can get a perfect tune without lasers or levels. Then again, gadgets are cool and if someone wants to own them, then go for it.

PABowhntr

Greg,

Great post. I do not know how I missed this back in September. I have been using a similar setup for about two years now. I have found it to be very effective with a variety of the bows I have used it on.

However, like several of the others have mentioned both the laser and the levels have their faults. This particular laser's faults have been fairly well described. However, the riser's flatness in relation to the bow's string travel isn't the only issue. The laser does a good job of aligning the bow in its static state...at rest. Dynamically, the shot process involves many variables, not the least of which being shooter induced, that directly affect the various tuning "settings".

The levels' biggest fault typically shows itself when part of the level sits on the bare string and part sits on the center serving. It can throw the desired setting off if you do not compensate for it.

Don't get me wrong on these products. I do not like or utilize papertuning much either. I think the products you mentioned can be an excellent starting point for most shooters (and can get you very, very close for some bows) but many times a little additional tweeking is also required...something you made mention to earlier in the thread.

Greg / MO

Yep.

TFOX

The problem is that on other bows they put them WAY off from any starting point.They are not evn close enough to start.


This is where the problem lies.How is a person that is not in the know supposed to figure this out.


Alot of inexperienced people will get the lazer,set the bow up to it and think they are close enough to where it is supposed to be.



I had this happen to a soon to be friend.He payed $10.00 to have a so called pro shop use the lazer on his bow.He came into the 3-dleague that night and didn't even have enough adjustment on his sight to sight the thing in.The centershot was off by that much.I readjusted centershot,(eyeballed because of time)helped himget resighted and he shot the best score up to that point.[] That is a testament to what eyeballing and confidence can do.

Greg / MO

I see what you're saying, TFOX... but I'm wondering about the efficiency -- or perhaps design -- of the bow(s) in question if someone lines up the arrow shaft with a laser tool such as the one I have to be exactly in line with the power stroke, and it's not even CLOSE? Not doubting you one iota, as I'm sure it happens. I've just not had experience with it personally. Thankfully, this method works very well for me and the bows I've had in my shop.

TFOX

Some of the best bows on the market will not work with the lazer.Why do you think there is such a need for the 3rd axis adjustment on sights.If all bows were square,the 3rd axis adjustment wouldn't be necessary.


Do you realize that if the riser is out as little as .010 over a 2" span(average riser width from front to back)that on a 28" draw length,the lazer will put your centershot out as much as .090.


For those that don't know,a hair on your head is about .003 and 1/64" is .015 of an inch.An 1/8" is .125.This might give you some kind of idea as to how little a riser would have to be out of square with the power stroke to make the lazer give you a false reading.

So basically,the camo film dip could cause a false reading.[8D]




I had a guy that told me that the Bowtech was the only bow thatHE had personally checked that the lazer was accurate on.Cudos to Bowtech.Now if they would put the higher quality LAMINATEDlimbs on their bows.[]

I won't argue HIS findings.Plus I have no idea how many he checked.

TFOX

I have been saying square but what I should be saying is the riser isn't running parralel or square in many cases.


Plus,on a second note,the riser squareness or parralelness(is that a word)has absolutely NOTHING to do with efficiency.


That is determined by the powerstroke,and cam design.

Now,if you go and align the powerstroke to a riser that doesn't run parallel with the power stroke,that will definately negatively affect powerstroke and efficiency.


Want to get into fourth axis yet.[]

muzzyman88

Wow, nice work from everyone. This is one the most informative post I've read in a whie concerning good tuning.

One thing that always makes me wonder, especially with the laser, is arrow spine. Wouldn't spine have to be perfect, or close to it in order for the results of the laser to be absolutely effective? I've found that regardless of how close I get initial centershot, at long distance, 50-60yds, I almost always have to make very fine adjustments to my centershot. While other factors will effect this other than arrow spine, I can't help but wonder how close the spine of the arrow matches my particular bow and draw weight.

I've always gotten it as close as I can with the naked eye. I also made a little tool, that someone on another forum was making that uses the berger button hole to getmy nock height reletive to berger hole close. Then I shoot through paper, not concerned too much with left and right tears so long as they're only very small tears, but more so with verticle tears. Then I go to walk back tuning and tune, tune, tune. I can't say its perfect, but it seems pretty darn close out to 60 yds.

Greg / MO

I thought the 3rd axis adjustment was more for user-induced torque, though now you're REALLY getting out of my area of expertise...

(For those wondering, TFOX and I are cool with each other as we delve into this subject matter even deeper; we've talked via PMs. I think the discussion will be beneficial to readers, and certainly to me -- as I plainly prefaced my initial post that I've never claimed to be a tuning guru, and this post certainly wasn't intended to be the definitive guide on tuning... though it might end up there. )

I completely understand what you're saying here, and it helps me to understand the theory behind your previous posts, too.

So we've concluded that manufacturers need to have better quality control in their film-dipping process, and maintain a uniform thickness during application! [8D]I'm kidding, I'm kidding...

TFOX

muzzy,glad you brought that up.


YES,spine is definately an issue but spine should always be matched to the bow for efficiency,never adjust the rest in or out for an uderspined arrow to paper tune or anything else. Get the right arrows,you will be more accurate and have better penetration.


If you have read any of my post you will see that I have had my bows in the past tuned on a Hooter shooter with a spot-hogg lazer tuner.The lazer works off the cams,the way it needs to be done,EVEN THEN,the PROFESSIONAL tuner told methat I may need to tweak the rest in or out a very small amount to fit me.This particular case,I went home,started group tuning at 50 yards and moved the rest in and out and couldn't get any better than where he had it.

PS,I am not one that would go get a lazer and Hooter tuning but he is a friend and builds my strings for me and puts the bow on his machine for free.What am I to say?NO!![]


Plus,the arrow tuning is phenominal.[8D]