Originally Posted by 4evrhtn

Not taking sides either way but here is what I have seen, Most Navhda trained dogs are much more thoroughly trained than any other group of dogs I have seen. I run mine in AKC hunt tests to prepare for the Navhda requirements. A dog can have his Master title in AKC and fail miserably in Navhda because while Yes, they find birds, hold point, are steady to shot, honor and retrieve. Most of that comes naturally for pointing breeds-some dogs have to be worked more in some areas than others. Alot of what I see In NAVHDA takes alot more work because they are now having to do all the above but within guidelines that the dog would not naturally do such as learning position direction from the handler instead of having their nose do all the directioning as in blind retrieves for instance and resending a dog into water or cover to search repeatedly after not finding the bird the first time or two. These dogs have to follow commands to a higher level than required by AKC.

As far as Pointing Labs.... I am skeptical. I have seen a few labs that were supposedly "Pointing Labs" and what I saw was a dog that was trained to whoa upon scent of a bird instead of instinctually pointing. There is a difference between the two. While almost every one out of a 100 GSP's will most likely point at scent or birds being pheasant or sparrows whether trained or not, the percentage of "Pointing Labs" doing the same by instinct and not conditioning is at best still in the single digits out of 100 Pointing Labs. I can post pics all day long of my german shorthair appearing to be pointing even in a parking lot without a blade of grass around because I whoa'd him into that position. Pictures of Labs appearing to be pointing does not mean they are pointing. Pointing is not what a lab was bred to do and if for argument's sake they are locked up on scent of a bird it is because they have been trained to do it not because they instinctually want to do it. I would love if someone can show me actual video of a lab working a field, scenting a bird and pointing that bird especially if that lab can see the bird moving around in front of it and it holds point with nothing between the dog and the bird such as briars or brush that would keep the dog from trying to flush it.

Originally Posted by anjelojon

If you want to look at the best all around sporting dogs, you've got to take into account more than just upland, waterfowl, and retrieving (which is really just part of the other two), tracking, hunting fur, and qualities as a house dog has also gotta be worked into it. For the sake of simplicity though, I'll just go by upland, waterfowl, tracking, and qualities as a house dog for the major breeds.

Originally Posted by mustad

That's pretty funny J. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The reason labs are useless as pointing dogs is because they don't point. If you really think your lab points, you haven't seen an actual pointing dog.