sproul Are you sure setters have a better nose? (not disagreeing with you just curious????) The reason I ask is because Labs are by far the best dogs to train to hunt antlers (labradoodles are 2nd) and antlers give off less scent than a live grouse and the area's I find the most antlers is usually the very same thick cover that I find the most grouse. Pike

Awesome lookin labs!! My Lab pup has the same crooked tail aswell. Pike

Without a doubt, they are much faster and uses the wind and ground to find the birds. Also on rainy days they can still carry threw rather quickly. For as far as antler hunting most bird hunters do not care alot for hunting antlers with thier dogs. Perhaps that is why? I am not saying Labs do not have good noses though as some are also used as drug dogs. The same holds true for some setters as well though. Overall again the best dog is the one you own and enjoy the most.

Thanks for bringing this thread back to where it is supposed to be Pike.

The parameters that the original poster had were:

Waterfowl/Retrieving
Upland hunting
Fur
Tracking
Family Dog

I have never knocked the lab as an all around sporting dog. In fact, again I put it as probably the best option for a flushing dog. The biggest problem I have with the lab is the amount of HD in the breed.

That said, I would love to see the metrics you use to determine that the lab is the best dog in the categories you listed. Antler finding and Dock Diving has nothing to do with a hunting/sporting dog. You might as well add agility into the list if you're going that direction.

BTW, you ask who cares about NAVHDA and other testing systems. The answer is twofold:

1. Any breeder who is looking to improve the quality of the breed
and
2. Any owner looking to get the most our of his/her dog.

The reason I added dock diving is because it was brought up earlier in this thread and since you brought hunt tests into the discussion why not include dock diving? After all it is retrieving.
And by the way labs dominate the sport, Nutmeg a choclate lab from CT. is the current world record holder. Air Morgan a black lab was the previous world record holder.

As far as antler hunting, there are more hunters using their dogs to hunt antlers than there are hunters training their dogs to compete in hunt tests. And once again hunt test's take place in a controlled enviroment and isnt hunting. And once again labs are by far the best breed to use to hunt antlers and labradoodles are 2nd.

More hunters and non hunters own labs as pets than any other sporting breed. Why? because they make the best pets.

Waterfowl? Do you really need me to explain?

Phil most bird hunters also deer hunt. But why would the lab be the #1 choice by hunters who do care about antler hunting if their nose is inferior to other sporting breeds? After all most hunters dont care what breed of dog to buy when they decide to invest so much time and money into a dog to train to hunt antlers, they just want the best breed to increase their odds as much as possibe from the start. (after all it is more difficult to train any breed of dog to hunt and locate antlers than it is to train any breed to hunt and locate any game species)

Is a retrieve required to have a qualifying score? Here is the purpose of dock dogs...

"Section 1.01 Statement of Purpose
(a) DockDogs is the independent governing and sanctioning body for regional, national and international Dock JumpingTM and Dock DivingTM, dog performance sports. DockDogs establishes the rules and standards of the sport, tracks results and records, supports and promotes the growth of its athletes, events, spectators, and sponsors."

Not sure I see anything that says it is focused towards hunting, but I may be mistaken. Go look at the purpose of organizations like NAVHDA, JGHV, VHDF, even AKC; and you'll see a much different focus.

Not to take anything away from dock dogs, but I spend more of my time focusing on hunting related activities than these games. I have enough venues that I can play in and volunteer enough of my time and my dogs time to help tag waterfowl and improve upland habitat that games like aren't really on my radar screen. They do seem fun though and are really fun to watch. Plus, it is much important for the improvement of the breed that we focus on hunting related activities to identify potential breed stock rather than allowing chance to guide decisions.

Please provide your source on this statistic. I'm still waiting for your previous sources as well. By the way, why do you call it antler hunting? Are you carrying a gun? Seems to me you're taking a walk with your dog trying to beat the porcupines to the sheds.

You're wrong that all hunt tests take place in a controlled environment and isn't hunting. Many of the tests I'm involved with are conducted on wild game in their natural environment. The problem surrounding this is twofold:

1. In most places, it is illegal
2. It takes a lot more time, especially the portions of the test where we are tracking hare.

And more kids are bit, mauled and killed by labs than any other sporting breed as well. Great pets.

I have no issue with labs. If you like them great. Personally, I think they are useless for me and despise them as pets. They shed way too much for me and I have never met a lab that I can trust unconditionally with my kids.

Plus, they are so overbred that there are way too many problems. My brother got a lab from a very well known breeder... Great lines, both parents hunted a ton... all in all a no brainer decision. His dog is crosseyed, overshot and was recently diagnosed with HD. The breeder, of course, won't take the dog back and won't refund any portion of the fee my brother paid. I hear stories like this all the time.

I think you're the guy who got the dog from an Amish puppy mill no? Sounds like you got lucky. I really hope when the dog gets older, it is sound in the joints, heart, etc... But problems in these areas are way to widespread in the lab world and there's no reason for it.

Yes you do. Personally, I have yet to see a lab that can better any well bred continental in waterfowl. I hunt with a ton of guys here that own labs. Whether it's on their boat or mine, it always seems there is an excuse why their dogs don't come with us.

I hunt ducks between 50-60 days a season all over New England, into Canada, and down in Arkansas. I was hunting with Charles Snapp and one of his guys last January. Both of them; diehard lab guys, said they had never seen dogs that are capable of using their noses as effectively as mine and my buddies wirehair. They never bothered to bring their labs out either.

I should probably go play more in some of the retrieving hunt tests, but frankly with everything I have going on right now, I just don't have the time.

jp, i seen it hunting for 46 yrs.those setters can pick up air scents .i guess breeding did that. TOBY CAN PICK UP SCENT OF GROUNDHOG 100 YDS AWAY IF WIND IS BLOWING.yet i seen him walk by a rabbit or grouse. i seen toby slowly hunting for pheasants ,next to him was setter and ran right to pheasant 20 yds away.

i believe toby was smelling the pheasants feet and the setter was smelling the pheasants body in air.if pheasant just sits in morning and not move it seems the setters pick up scent better.toby does walk right by.

my friend raises both labs/lewellin setters.he said on 10 pheasants lab will find 4 and setter will find 7.many the lab walked by.
he said setters will fid more birds than lab.he likes a lab because if bird runs the lab will put bird up. setter will be pointing while bird runs.
i hunt a lot and for wild grouse. i am only one using a lab.now when i go pheasant hunting its about 2 labs,5 setters,2 gsp,3 springers.thats rough day at warriors mark preserve and about average.

on grouse its setters, english pointers,gsp,BRITTANYS.i am only one with LAB.

Starting a staement with why haven't when you answered, because they aren't allowed?????

No one ever said that ALL labs point, you said NO LABS point, now at least you concede that SOME do, which is all any of us has said from the start. Yes Pointing labs are the exception not the rule.... You are the one that was saying NONE.\

As far as teh VHDA or whatever, I have heard of it, but that is about it. I stay plenty busy running dogs in other venues, don't even know the rules to it so can't comment ad to why PL's have not shown up more there, other then not many people with PL's have tried it, just a hunch.

Sproul my lab trains with 8 GSP's and he locates the birds faster then they do most of the time and they are all 2 + years of age.
Also about your theory about labs not being able to pick scent out of the air, I just conducted a little experiment with Mojo, this morning I hung a small antler 4 + feet above the ground in a bush and then this afternoon when I went home for lunch I set Mojo loose to find it, well it didnt take him any longer to find it 4 + feet high then it would if I hid it under the bush. And like I said, it is alot harder for a dog to pick up the scent of an antler then it is to pick up the scent of a live bird. Pike