What do you think is the all around best sporting dog?
07-01-2010, 11:56 AM
#21
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: York, PA.
Posts: 1,313
LMAO!! Being from PA. we have more hunters and hunting dogs than all the states that make up New England combined!! So its pretty safe to say that I am around more hunting dogs on a daily basis than you and I know exactly what a pointing dog is. Pike
07-01-2010, 12:05 PM
#22
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: York, PA.
Posts: 1,313
Click on the link, read slowly and you might actually learn something. Labs dont point!! Now thats funny right there!!
Thats even funnier than you claiming that Poodle Pointers are more versitle than the Lab. Pike
http://www.pointing-labs.net/do-labs-point.html
Thats even funnier than you claiming that Poodle Pointers are more versitle than the Lab. Pike
http://www.pointing-labs.net/do-labs-point.html
Last edited by J Pike; 07-01-2010 at 12:10 PM.
07-01-2010, 12:29 PM
#23
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New England
Posts: 811
Based upon what you have stated, it is not safe to assume anything. If you really think your dog is pointing; and those pictures represent evidence of your belief; you do not know anything about pointing dogs. You can believe what you want Pike, but the reality is what it is... you dog doesn't point. It's ok dude; your dog is not a pointing dog. It's not what he was bred to do. It's not what you want him for.... so don't get your pantyies bound up over it. Just have fun with him and enjoy the hunt. If you look at my original post, I wasn't bashing labs in any way or form. In fact I specifically said that if you're looking for a versatile flushing dog, the lab would be considered absolute top.
By the way, it might be possible that you have seen more hunting dogs than me; but honestly I highly doubt it. One thing is certain, I've seen enough of these supposed pointing labs to come to two conclusions... 1. Anyone trying to sell a "pointing" lab is a used car salesman and 2. Labs don't point.
BTW, apologies to the original poster... his thread has been way to hijacked and we should get back on his point rather than argue something that has very little to do with his question. If you want to continue to argue your point, either start a new thread or pm me.
By the way, it might be possible that you have seen more hunting dogs than me; but honestly I highly doubt it. One thing is certain, I've seen enough of these supposed pointing labs to come to two conclusions... 1. Anyone trying to sell a "pointing" lab is a used car salesman and 2. Labs don't point.
BTW, apologies to the original poster... his thread has been way to hijacked and we should get back on his point rather than argue something that has very little to do with his question. If you want to continue to argue your point, either start a new thread or pm me.
07-01-2010, 03:06 PM
#24
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: York, PA.
Posts: 1,313
LMAO. here is another link for you from the Bass Pro Shop site
If you want more proof all you have to do is google pointing labs. Pike
http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/st...objectID=28642
If you want more proof all you have to do is google pointing labs. Pike
http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/st...objectID=28642
Last edited by J Pike; 07-01-2010 at 03:09 PM.
07-01-2010, 03:56 PM
#25
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New England
Posts: 811
Wow. What a credible source you tout. Yet another company looking to sell stuff. Please just face reality. You have a good dog and go hunting with it... but stop trying to turn it into something it isn't.
Here is one of your mysterious pointing lab litters:
I've got a little secret for you... if it points; it ain't a lab...
Out of respect for the original poster and boredom, I'm done with this issue.
Here is one of your mysterious pointing lab litters:
I've got a little secret for you... if it points; it ain't a lab...
Out of respect for the original poster and boredom, I'm done with this issue.
07-01-2010, 05:17 PM
#26
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 12,564
Phil, there is a small, but growing number of folks that use their setters as versatile dogs. This is almost exclusively a result of breeding programs using NAVHDA as the means of measuring the success of their programs and basis of their breeding decisions. However, as a breed, I wouldn't say they are considered versatile.
You clearly have never checked the history of them very well have you? The Irish that hunt today are made from imported strands. The ones of yester year were never told about NAVHDA either. LOL Then again there is still alot of secrets that are kept with the Irish hunters and breeders in order to keep them the way they are..
By the way I am thinking it was DOC E that used to be on here with his pointing lab. That lab would clearly point and was quite versatile as well. I do believed he went through NAVHDA though if I can remember correctly.. But again it was clearly a pointing Lab that he was using..
07-03-2010, 07:13 AM
#27
Typical Buck
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Central PA
Posts: 829
Not taking sides either way but here is what I have seen, Most Navhda trained dogs are much more thoroughly trained than any other group of dogs I have seen. I run mine in AKC hunt tests to prepare for the Navhda requirements. A dog can have his Master title in AKC and fail miserably in Navhda because while Yes, they find birds, hold point, are steady to shot, honor and retrieve. Most of that comes naturally for pointing breeds-some dogs have to be worked more in some areas than others. Alot of what I see In NAVHDA takes alot more work because they are now having to do all the above but within guidelines that the dog would not naturally do such as learning position direction from the handler instead of having their nose do all the directioning as in blind retrieves for instance and resending a dog into water or cover to search repeatedly after not finding the bird the first time or two. These dogs have to follow commands to a higher level than required by AKC.
As far as Pointing Labs.... I am skeptical. I have seen a few labs that were supposedly "Pointing Labs" and what I saw was a dog that was trained to whoa upon scent of a bird instead of instinctually pointing. There is a difference between the two. While almost every one out of a 100 GSP's will most likely point at scent or birds being pheasant or sparrows whether trained or not, the percentage of "Pointing Labs" doing the same by instinct and not conditioning is at best still in the single digits out of 100 Pointing Labs. I can post pics all day long of my german shorthair appearing to be pointing even in a parking lot without a blade of grass around because I whoa'd him into that position. Pictures of Labs appearing to be pointing does not mean they are pointing. Pointing is not what a lab was bred to do and if for argument's sake they are locked up on scent of a bird it is because they have been trained to do it not because they instinctually want to do it. I would love if someone can show me actual video of a lab working a field, scenting a bird and pointing that bird especially if that lab can see the bird moving around in front of it and it holds point with nothing between the dog and the bird such as briars or brush that would keep the dog from trying to flush it.
As far as Pointing Labs.... I am skeptical. I have seen a few labs that were supposedly "Pointing Labs" and what I saw was a dog that was trained to whoa upon scent of a bird instead of instinctually pointing. There is a difference between the two. While almost every one out of a 100 GSP's will most likely point at scent or birds being pheasant or sparrows whether trained or not, the percentage of "Pointing Labs" doing the same by instinct and not conditioning is at best still in the single digits out of 100 Pointing Labs. I can post pics all day long of my german shorthair appearing to be pointing even in a parking lot without a blade of grass around because I whoa'd him into that position. Pictures of Labs appearing to be pointing does not mean they are pointing. Pointing is not what a lab was bred to do and if for argument's sake they are locked up on scent of a bird it is because they have been trained to do it not because they instinctually want to do it. I would love if someone can show me actual video of a lab working a field, scenting a bird and pointing that bird especially if that lab can see the bird moving around in front of it and it holds point with nothing between the dog and the bird such as briars or brush that would keep the dog from trying to flush it.
Last edited by 4evrhtn; 07-03-2010 at 06:53 PM.
07-05-2010, 01:38 PM
#29
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: York, PA.
Posts: 1,313
As far as Pointing Labs.... I am skeptical. I have seen a few labs that were supposedly "Pointing Labs" and what I saw was a dog that was trained to whoa upon scent of a bird instead of instinctually pointing. There is a difference between the two. While almost every one out of a 100 GSP's will most likely point at scent or birds being pheasant or sparrows whether trained or not, the percentage of "Pointing Labs" doing the same by instinct and not conditioning is at best still in the single digits out of 100 Pointing Labs. I can post pics all day long of my german shorthair appearing to be pointing even in a parking lot without a blade of grass around because I whoa'd him into that position. Pictures of Labs appearing to be pointing does not mean they are pointing. Pointing is not what a lab was bred to do and if for argument's sake they are locked up on scent of a bird it is because they have been trained to do it not because they instinctually want to do it. I would love if someone can show me actual video of a lab working a field, scenting a bird and pointing that bird especially if that lab can see the bird moving around in front of it and it holds point with nothing between the dog and the bird such as briars or brush that would keep the dog from trying to flush it.
You know your more than welcome to come over to my property in the winter and shed hunt and yote hunt right?
Shed hunting is how I discovered that my lab pointed, this past March when he was about 14 weeks old, he started pointing every time he located one of our many grouse or wood****s.
I dont know his pedigree etc. only that he was a rescue from an amish puppy mill but one thing I am 100% positive about is that his pointing is instinctive because at the time the only thing I was worried about training him to do was to find every antler possible. At the time the grouse and wood****s were just an unwanted distraction. Pike
07-05-2010, 01:44 PM
#30
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: York, PA.
Posts: 1,313
Not taking sides either way but here is what I have seen, Most Navhda trained dogs are much more thoroughly trained than any other group of dogs I have seen. I run mine in AKC hunt tests to prepare for the Navhda requirements. A dog can have his Master title in AKC and fail miserably in Navhda because while Yes, they find birds, hold point, are steady to shot, honor and retrieve. Most of that comes naturally for pointing breeds-some dogs have to be worked more in some areas than others. Alot of what I see In NAVHDA takes alot more work because they are now having to do all the above but within guidelines that the dog would not naturally do such as learning position direction from the handler instead of having their nose do all the directioning as in blind retrieves for instance and resending a dog into water or cover to search repeatedly after not finding the bird the first time or two. These dogs have to follow commands to a higher level than required by AKC.
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