Well, maybe this is why I haven't seen anything lately. I just found out that I should call into the wind, not with it. I thought that since predators often slip around down wind, you should call that direction. The thing is, if your back is to down wind, then I don't see how you can see anything behind you or even shoot if something moves back there. Now if I put an open field to my back down wind, then maybe fox won't be so willing to expose themselves to get downwind. Why then would a fox come in if they can't scent you? It seems as if your damned if you do and damned if you don't. I'm going back out tonight. The moonlight is killing me though since it seems to render my red light almost worthless yet the moon light is not bright enough to see things. I guess if it was an easier matter there would be nothing to call in a very short period of time.

the reason you call into the wind is becouse you have to assume any predator coming in from the down wind side is going to bust you and leave the area long before a shot pressents its self.call into the wind trying to spark the interest of a predator up wind, and if your setup is right you will catch him sneaking to the down wind side.this is the theory behind it but of caurse it dosn't always work out this way,sometimes it works better,sometimes its dosn't work at all.to answer the question,does every body get a fox every time out,not hardly.some days they just don't respond,there are many reasons for this and not all of them are a hunters mistakes.its just the way it is.if you have many,many stand sets that you can hit in one outing you up your chances of bagging at least one.then suddenly you will catch a night where every stand set they run you over from all directions trying to get that rabbit.

Edited by - coyoteseeker on 11/15/2002 04:34:42

coyoteseeker,
Do you find certain times of the night to be more consistent for reds vs greys?
With greys being the more dominant animal (even tho smaller on average)if I'm seeing quite a few Reds on a particular farm during daylight hours can I assume that the GRey population is low, or that the Reds are hunting during the daylight hours to avoid conflicts with the Greys?

I hope you don't mind me picking your brain.......Its been a few years since I've fox hunted seriously, I know the basics pretty well as far as set-up wind, dim lights, slow scan etc etc. but after years of doing this I STILL haven't figured out the quirks between the Red and Greys and how to call to each seperately and successfully.
I've whacked greys hard w/ Pup distress calls throughout the season and with rabbit distress later thru winter, but have had very little luck when trying just for reds.
Any thoughts?

matt,i don't find that a perticular time of night is better for either,but what does matter is terrain.the reds and grays generaly hunt different types of ground,the reds prefer more open grassy(tall)type feilds with thick intersecting hedge rows and crop feilds.while prefering large old growth wood lots to bed and den in.the grays prefer thick,swampy low land type areas,over grown fields with tall,thick bushes and sapplings.they will also be found in young wood lots with thick under growth.this of caurse is a broad generalization of the two spieces,at times they both can be found any where at any time.you don't see grays during daylight becouse they just don't make a habbit of roaming around during daylight hours.generaly that 30 min period from sunset to darkness and first light to sunrise is about all the daylight traveling a gray will do.this of caurse will change under extremly harsh winter conditions,they will move from pure nessesity and survival.you must remember that a red feeds primaraly on mice,mouls,vouls,small birds and the like,while grays primary food source is rabbits or in the case of a gray,what ever he can get a hold of.a gray will feed on rotten road kill or spoiled carrion any time of year while a red will only do this during harsh winter months.all predators are opertunistic feeders during winter months of cold and snow.when targeting reds only look for farms with crop feilds divided by hedge rows with intersecting grass feilds,mowed or unmowed it dosen't matter but unmowed is better with large wood lots near by.in other words any place that would harbor large numbers of mice and other small varmints.if grays are the domonent spieces in your area they will also be in this type of area.another thing to concider is if your not seeing reds in a particular area it may not be from conflicts with grays but rather conflicts with coyotes.a coyote will kill and eat a red on sight,the reds know this and generaly avoid any areas inhabbited by coyote.now the question at hand is why don't they kill grays?? well they do somtimes but don't make a habbit of it.this could be from the shear meaness and aggressivness of a gray.its no dought that a gray would be harder to handle then a red,even for a coyote.i have many times been coyote huntin at night with a coyote killing a rabbit tape playing and have a gray come charging in to get that rabbit.its mind boggling to think that that a gray would accualy think he's going to steal that rabbit from a coyote,go figure.well i hope this helps a little in figuring your stratagies for fox.good hunting,be safe and have fun.

Edited by - coyoteseeker on 11/17/2002 08:43:51

thats interesting ridge runner,can't begin to explain that.as far as volume your absolutly right,reds are very volume sensitive.thats a very good point and could be one more reason why matt/pa is having more grays then reds responding.

Threw a big shut-out last night.......First time in a new area and I think I just picked the wrong call. It was sort of what looked like to me as a "Transition" type cover......one of those managed game lands where they stock pheasants, a combination of cultivated fields , but surrounded for the most part with woods and thick brushy draws. I was thinking greys, but the more I spooked around it was very agricultural in spots.
I went with a grey fox pup in distress for the first 4-5 set-ups and saw NOTHING, not even a blink of an eye. Switched over to a baby cottontail at a medium volume for the next sets about 1/2mile away, but I got "Mooned"......my dim light and that super bright full moon just weren't cutting it so I called it a night and didn't want to disturb more spots. I'm gonna wait for the darkest darn night I can find next time out, I just have ZERO confidence calling on such a bright night. I use such a dim red light that it was barely lighting up my boots in that moon.

Coyoteseeker,
What call would you recommend for a new area such as this where I'm not really sure what the majority fox is for that cover? I really want to start picking off reds on a regular basis, but i'll take whatever happens to be within earshot. Baby Cottontail OK? and I imagine low to mid volume at about 10 minutes per call on a calm night would be best?

I tried to force set-ups where a fox (red or grey) would have to either travel a hedgerow to me or circle out and around to another opening in order to try to get downwind of the call.

I am fairly new to calling, couple years experience, but here is an observation. i know reds are supposed to be tougher to call yet even being new I've called them in just as much if not more than grays. I use a woodpecker tape and they really like it. When i play my gray fox pup I rarely see anything. I know 1st thought is there musn't be many grays, but while archery hunting I see grays way more than reds. They are there, unless many others are calling grays specifically and they are used to the pup tape? I have learned a lot from listening to you coyoteseeker, and the others both here and on some other boards. it took me a long time to figure foxes out.

on moon lit nights(expecialy with snow cover)i have never had good luck.when the moon is 1/2,3/4 or full i stay home and keep the wife happy.somtimes on moonless nights with snow cover i like to hunker down in a hedge row,call and wait for one to run by.this tactic works good but you have to hide good or they will pick you.half volume on a call box for reds is way to much volume.i should have mentioned this earlyer in this topic but it just completely slip my mind.thanks to ridge runner he reminded me of this very important thing when calling reds.always(regardless if using call box or hand calls)start off your calling low,about #2 on the call box dial.if theres a red within a couple of hundred yards of your location and you come on with super volume he will spook or just sit down and watch never to come in.run the tape at around 2 for 2 to 4 min,if nothing shows raise the volume to around 3 maybe 4 for 10 to 30 seconds and then slowly drop it back down to 2 or less.never get ratical or jerky with the volume switch and never turn off the call box in the middle call burst.wait for a pause then turn the volume down then turn it off.if theres wind,highway noise or anything like that a little more volume maybe nessassary,common sence will go a long way here.stay each stand 15 to 30 min and move on.i like to stay around 30 at each stand some guys leave after 15.when hunting at night just make sure there isn't one sitting and watching you.after you stop calling wait a few min and then kiss the palm off your hand,this will get anything thats hung up to look at you and you should be able to pick there eyes with your light.as far as gray fox pup for reds,never had any luck with it either.stick with rabbit,rodents and as wimp says,woodpecker or any small bird in distress.alot of guys like the yellow hammer wood pecker tape.reds are very finicky and very shy somtimes,loud and aggressive calling at times will turn them off.finnessing them with soft calling will always produce more then loud calling.matt/pa your on the right track as far as forcing set ups,make them go where you can see them.

Hello again,

These moonlit nights have not been good to me since it seems that I stand out like a sore thumb, even with the camo. It has been fun none the less. Anyhow, my question is regarding coyotes. I will be calling for them up at deer hunting camp. Does the volume thing apply for coyotes as well? Also, I heard that you should spend more time at the stand, some say 1 hour or longer for eastern coyotes. Does this mean you are calling that long or calling for the first 20 and sitting out the rest. I ask because I heard that the coyote tends to slowly sneak in under cover.

Thanks

Kevin

the volume thing does not apply to coyote,within reason of caurse.the volume used is about the same as used for gray fox,they both like it a bit louder.i think sitting a stand for an hour only cuts into your calling time at other stand sites.the only time i sit a stand longer then 20 to 40 min is when the snow is deep(it takes them longer to get to ya)or if i see that one has hung up out of range or in a bad spot for a shot.somtimes a coyote will bust in like a gray other times they may take there time.but in most cases if there going to responed they will be to ya in 15 min or less.what makes the coyote more diffacult to hunt then fox is there abilty to detect anything out of the ordanary,there abilty to sence danger.they are in tune like no other critter in the woods,even more so then a mature buck.you will not get away with many of the things(mistakes) you can get away with when fox hunting.and if the coyote has been educated thats is worked before and expecialy if he's been shot at,all bets are off.you most likly won't out smart or beat him.pay close attention to every possible detail in your set up,wind direction,is your outline broken up,are you skylined,is your truck visable from your stand,did you make to much noise going to the stand and so on.these details must not be over looked if you want to be succsessfull.always set up a stand site so he has to expose himself trying to get on to the down wind side of you.a yearling pup might come in with little regard to wind direction but a mature alfa will never have little regard for anything.don't take him lightly and don't take it personaly when he makes a fool of you.for instance sneaks in behind you and at 20 deet lets out a howl or starts yipping and you had no clue he was there.its one of those go home and change your shorts times....<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>