How should Wildlife Management be funded?
02-12-2009, 05:57 PM
#301
Typical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 584
RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
ORIGINAL: Cornelius08
"By the way, you should have pulled and posted those pictures of the winter starved deer in Greene County from that other site too. Must be that didn't fit into your agenda."
Rediculous. Tens of thousands of deer in a wmu, with fine herd and habitat health, and you think thatZERO deer should ever die? News for you RSB, natural mortality is just that. Natural. And it includes sickness, disease, injury, infection, lingering woundsetc.To expect NONE todie EVER during harsh winter is rediculous. AndIve lived and traveled this wmufor many many years and have many friends family members etc. who do as well, some of which are landowners....And winter kill has NEVER been a problem in Greene. EVER.There is not onewmu (or any other northern state for that matter) that NEVER has ANY deer die during winter, and by comparison This area is FAR less than most. Also if you compare the percentages of winterkill to other areas of the state, considering herd size, the kill in sw is a completenonissue and tiny by comparison....and even having said that, the other areas don't exactly exceed the norm either. You guys are in a whole other world up there. We had a bit of snow a couple of weeks ago. Maybe an inch. Its been gone for awhile. You guys probably still have snow? You guys get it by the foot. If we get a foot of snow, its about a once in a decade occurence if we're lucky. Really funny when I see the weather maps on tv and the snow you guys get and we arelucky to get a half inch.
"Cornelius needs to see those dead deer though since he believes there aren’t any habitat issues preventing more deer down that way;"
RSB, I get outALOT. All year long. I see what goes on here, and Ive also seen the data, which btw backs me 100%. You are preaching a very basic principal that simply doesnt apply here to the extent you think it mightwhile sittingtherehalf a stateaway, lucky to have ever set foot in the wmuat all. I know what goes on on properties across all corners of this wmu all throughout the year. I am also intimately familiar with what deer eat and what is available. In this wmu there is MUCH more to eat than many other areas of the state, even with alot more deer munchin' on it.(LOL)
"I guess the deer are telling a different story about the state of the habitat down there in Greene County and unit 2A though. "
Not at all. Not in the least. As healthy a herd as anywhere in the state. Of course, it was even when we had twice the overwinter deer. Now to insinuate otherwise is absolutely rediculous. Apparently pgc cannot disagree that winterkill isnt a problem (LOL)(Rediculous!) (LOL). They set the goal of "stabilization" based on the habitat health and herd health. Have a problem with that?? Take it up with them. I happen to agree. Even if the allocation doesnt support that supposed goal. I also dont think it fair at all to draw any conclusion based on two deer on one property which equates to one tiny portion of the wmu, which is far from the norm, And im very familiar with the deep valley area. Tons of off limits land. Lots of deer. Not the best habitat in the wmu by far, but far from the worse parts of the state..
"By the way, you should have pulled and posted those pictures of the winter starved deer in Greene County from that other site too. Must be that didn't fit into your agenda."
Rediculous. Tens of thousands of deer in a wmu, with fine herd and habitat health, and you think thatZERO deer should ever die? News for you RSB, natural mortality is just that. Natural. And it includes sickness, disease, injury, infection, lingering woundsetc.To expect NONE todie EVER during harsh winter is rediculous. AndIve lived and traveled this wmufor many many years and have many friends family members etc. who do as well, some of which are landowners....And winter kill has NEVER been a problem in Greene. EVER.There is not onewmu (or any other northern state for that matter) that NEVER has ANY deer die during winter, and by comparison This area is FAR less than most. Also if you compare the percentages of winterkill to other areas of the state, considering herd size, the kill in sw is a completenonissue and tiny by comparison....and even having said that, the other areas don't exactly exceed the norm either. You guys are in a whole other world up there. We had a bit of snow a couple of weeks ago. Maybe an inch. Its been gone for awhile. You guys probably still have snow? You guys get it by the foot. If we get a foot of snow, its about a once in a decade occurence if we're lucky. Really funny when I see the weather maps on tv and the snow you guys get and we arelucky to get a half inch.
"Cornelius needs to see those dead deer though since he believes there aren’t any habitat issues preventing more deer down that way;"
RSB, I get outALOT. All year long. I see what goes on here, and Ive also seen the data, which btw backs me 100%. You are preaching a very basic principal that simply doesnt apply here to the extent you think it mightwhile sittingtherehalf a stateaway, lucky to have ever set foot in the wmuat all. I know what goes on on properties across all corners of this wmu all throughout the year. I am also intimately familiar with what deer eat and what is available. In this wmu there is MUCH more to eat than many other areas of the state, even with alot more deer munchin' on it.(LOL)
"I guess the deer are telling a different story about the state of the habitat down there in Greene County and unit 2A though. "
Not at all. Not in the least. As healthy a herd as anywhere in the state. Of course, it was even when we had twice the overwinter deer. Now to insinuate otherwise is absolutely rediculous. Apparently pgc cannot disagree that winterkill isnt a problem (LOL)(Rediculous!) (LOL). They set the goal of "stabilization" based on the habitat health and herd health. Have a problem with that?? Take it up with them. I happen to agree. Even if the allocation doesnt support that supposed goal.
I also dont think it fair at all to draw any conclusion based on two deer on one property which equates to one tiny portion of the wmu, which is far from the norm, And im very familiar with the deep valley area. Tons of off limits land. Lots of deer. Not the best habitat in the wmu by far, but far from the worse parts of the state..
Here are the dead deer from Greene County. Obviously no wounds and in the typical position (head back over the shoulder) of deer that died of starvation. Where deer are starving to death without deep winter snows you should know there is a habitat problem, unless you are simply in denial because you don’t want to believe the evidence and facts.
Here are what the person had to say that found them and examined them along with one other comment following the pictures.
“Deer were at Deep Valley...southwestern corner. Lots of deer and little food. They were laying under a pine tree next to a trailer. Cut open their bellies and hardly anything in them and the bone marrow looked like strawberry jelly.
Could pick them up with one hand.”
The first picture shows the red bone marrow. That only occurs indeer that have starved to death.
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“Why would that surprise you?2A had one of the worst breeding rates for fawns in the state. It also had a higher winter mortality in 2004 than Clearfield county. Wow, Beaver and Somerset counties really had high winter mortality that year. They were a lot worse than Potter, Tioga and Elk counties. Actually, they led the state in winter mortality. I guess it doesn't just happen in the big woods.”
I agree that Greene County probably doesn’t get a lot of winter mortality but the evidence is pointing toward the fact that unit 2A really can’t support many more deer then already exist there.
R.S. Bodenhorn
02-12-2009, 06:03 PM
#302
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
What happened in unit 2G was that the deer population just crashed to meet the level of the existing habitat and environmental conditions. The habitat did improve slightly because nature reduced the deer populations to a level that matched those harsh winters, which was actually lower then it normally needs to be. So with fewer deer the habitat has improved, but not enough for any major or long term increase in deer numbers.
The deer population will, and all indicators are that it already is, increase to meet the improved habitat as long as we have normal winters. But, in the northern tier mountainous areas of the state the deer numbers will always experience some normal, and even significant, up and down trends based on the annual environmental variables.
WHO SHOULD HUNTERS BELIEVE, THE PGC or RSB?
02-12-2009, 06:12 PM
#303
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
“Why would that surprise you?2A had one of the worst breeding rates for fawns in the state.
02-12-2009, 06:19 PM
#304
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location:
Posts: 2,978
RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
"Here are the dead deer from Greene County. Obviously no wounds and in the typical position (head back over the shoulder) of deer that died of starvation. Where deer are starving to death without deep winter snows you should know there is a habitat problem, unless you are simply in denial because you don’t want to believe the evidence and facts."
"Here are what the person had to say that found them and examined them along with one other comment following the pictures.
“Deer were at Deep Valley...southwestern corner. Lots of deer and little food. They were laying under a pine tree next to a trailer. Cut open their bellies and hardly anything in them and the bone marrow looked like strawberry jelly.
Could pick them up with one hand.” "
“Deer were at Deep Valley...southwestern corner. Lots of deer and little food. They were laying under a pine tree next to a trailer. Cut open their bellies and hardly anything in them and the bone marrow looked like strawberry jelly.
Could pick them up with one hand.” "
“Why would that surprise you?2A had one of the worst breeding rates for fawns in the state. It also had a higher winter mortality in 2004 than Clearfield county. Wow, Beaver and Somerset counties really had high winter mortality that year. They were a lot worse than Potter, Tioga and Elk counties. Actually, they led the state in winter mortality. I guess it doesn't just happen in the big woods.”
Ahh, yes, our always anti-deer friend DOUGLAS adding his two cents. Perhaps he should read the annual report. Despite fawn breeding rates, the overall health did NOT rate as poor and the goal was to STABILIZE the deer herd. Or so we were told. That is based on acceptable health of both herd and habitat.
"I agree that Greene County probably doesn’t get a lot of winter mortality but the evidence is pointing toward the fact that unit 2A really can’t support many more deer then already exist there."
02-12-2009, 06:28 PM
#305
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location:
Posts: 2,978
RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
The herd crashed in 2G because the harvests have exceeded recruitment reducing the herd from 15DPSM in 2000, to 8 DPSM in 2007. Cutting the herd in half results in twice as much food for the remaining deer.
I Dont know why you would ever make the belowstatement RSB, maybe just didnt give it much thought before posting, but I assure you, you are wrong.
There is not twice as much food per deer or anything close to it.
02-13-2009, 08:53 AM
#306
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Pa.
Posts: 554
RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
Were those deer checked for EHD? That's where the outbreak was before.
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02-13-2009, 10:00 AM
#307
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location:
Posts: 2,978
RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
Funny to see on "the other site' a few enviromentalist extremists practically begging for more doe tags for 2A. That being in a wmu that is far below cc, half the ow deer as we had previously, a wmu where the cac didnt vote for less deer and felt the herd was on a reducing trend....A wmu where some of the best habitat in the state exists.... A wmu where Pgc themselves have deemed supposedly that we didnt have too many deer...
Yet a couple of eco-extremeist folks are crying for more tags in 2A to save the habitat and the birds and all else that is holy! (LOL)(LOL)
Speaking of completely rediculous. One said he saw the habitat degraded in the 80's, apparently he had no clue because the herd in 2Awasnt even near its all time high in the 80's. Also, one joker spoke of allocations not being effective in the wmu because its largely private. Unfortunately for his lack of logic, the wmu has been significantly reduced and that isnt even debatable.
Then our compadre Dougie, says that we had way too many deer and now hunters are crying because of the reduction. No dougie, sorry, but hunters dont like the direction was are continuing in. Hunters are NOT crying because we dont have 100 dpsm. Hunters are concerned because we have one third that and are continuing the reduction with far too many tags, even though pgc has claimed otherwise for the last 4 years.
Unreal.[:'(](LOL)...Absolutely unbelievable. Thats whathappens when some of ourfellowhunters are embracing "environmentalists" and their views. You get rediculously extreme deer management ideology based on distorted nonhunter friendly agendas. Another maleffect these people now have open stage forums for the extremist voice to be heard via hunting message sites as well as through a couple of hunting organizations that take in nonhunting conservationists.
Yet a couple of eco-extremeist folks are crying for more tags in 2A to save the habitat and the birds and all else that is holy! (LOL)(LOL)
Speaking of completely rediculous. One said he saw the habitat degraded in the 80's, apparently he had no clue because the herd in 2Awasnt even near its all time high in the 80's. Also, one joker spoke of allocations not being effective in the wmu because its largely private. Unfortunately for his lack of logic, the wmu has been significantly reduced and that isnt even debatable.
Then our compadre Dougie, says that we had way too many deer and now hunters are crying because of the reduction. No dougie, sorry, but hunters dont like the direction was are continuing in. Hunters are NOT crying because we dont have 100 dpsm. Hunters are concerned because we have one third that and are continuing the reduction with far too many tags, even though pgc has claimed otherwise for the last 4 years.
Unreal.[:'(](LOL)...Absolutely unbelievable. Thats whathappens when some of ourfellowhunters are embracing "environmentalists" and their views. You get rediculously extreme deer management ideology based on distorted nonhunter friendly agendas. Another maleffect these people now have open stage forums for the extremist voice to be heard via hunting message sites as well as through a couple of hunting organizations that take in nonhunting conservationists.
02-13-2009, 01:08 PM
#308
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA.
Posts: 5,195
RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
from our feeder sighting on our trail cameras,our feeders are set up about 2 miles apart or so on SPROUL in clinton county.
NUMBERS OF DEER ARE ABOUT 4 AVG AT EACH FEEDER,1 feeder near privateland had 6 deer on pictures.
only 1 fawn so far has been shown in 3 feeders at 3 different locations with about a 6 mile area.
most of deer look like 1.5 to 2 yr old deer.
1 doe was over 2 yr old .
almost all fed at 8 to 9pm ,then again at 4 to 6 am each day.
not 1 buck is shown at any of our locations, so far.
my MOULTIRE I-40 can take a picture of heads real good, i put it up high so it shoots down on tops of heads.
all deer look very healthy too me,real big butts and no ribs showing.
NUMBERS OF DEER ARE ABOUT 4 AVG AT EACH FEEDER,1 feeder near privateland had 6 deer on pictures.
only 1 fawn so far has been shown in 3 feeders at 3 different locations with about a 6 mile area.
most of deer look like 1.5 to 2 yr old deer.
1 doe was over 2 yr old .
almost all fed at 8 to 9pm ,then again at 4 to 6 am each day.
not 1 buck is shown at any of our locations, so far.
my MOULTIRE I-40 can take a picture of heads real good, i put it up high so it shoots down on tops of heads.
all deer look very healthy too me,real big butts and no ribs showing.
02-13-2009, 01:12 PM
#309
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA.
Posts: 5,195
RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
when someone can get 5 /6 or 7 deer ,all legal here in pa.
something is wrong with system.
if the PGC wants respect, with the numbers of deer left in wmu2g,1 deer and your done would be one direction for them to take.
something is wrong with system.
if the PGC wants respect, with the numbers of deer left in wmu2g,1 deer and your done would be one direction for them to take.