I think it is funny that you accuse me of twisting what was clearly stated, when it is you that are twisting the words because you know it isn't true. What you are apparently forgetting is that when Alt was selling ARs he said the purpose was to improve the buck age structure ,which would improve the breeding ecology and older ,bigger dominant buck would do most of the breeding which would result in improved genetics and larger racked buck.

If Alt would have just misspoke during a presentation , you might have a point. But, the PGC continued to repeat that claim for 5 years in the Digest and it still appears on the PGC website. The average hunter,especially younger hunters who might be a bit more gullible, would have little reason not to believe the PGC, if they wanted more and larger buck.

on privateland where BUCKS are left go to they reach ,say over 3 years old and have the 4 point to side restriction, all that i have seen have big racks.

i dont want to see that in wmu2g but if we continue to let the junior hunters and ILLEGAL brown its down with kids tag groupsshoot the little bucks, only a few will reach2 year old deer.

also the late muzzleloader season is too late and if horns drop, they are shot for doe or hunters take a stick and break horns off the little bucks.

that we cant stop but we could the ones that drop their horns by shortening season in muzzleloader.

if we dont stop thinking of MEAT and FILLING FREEZER , i cant see how any program to improve deer numbers or health is going to work.

i interviewd a kid after deer season.

i said,DID YOU GET BUCK?

here is what he said and he is 19 years old.

SPROUL, HELL WITH THOSE HORNS AND BUCK, I AM AFTER DEER JERKY.

there you go, no sportsmanship, no sitting around fire hoping for chance at nice buck,preserving the fawns,only GET THAT BEEF JERKY AND BOTTLE OF PEPSI.

Sproul,
I kind of agree with you for once, but where we differ is creating rules around outlaws. I'd like ot see more enforcement & people turning in poachers and those that circumvent the rules. But with an already under funded PGC the increased enforcement isnt likely to happen.
Laws can only go so far, it is up to the mindset of the people to carry things a bit farther. The C&R movement in fishing has had way more success than the thought of passing on a legal but small/young buck in the hunting. With the mindset of the Average PA hunter, it will be a LONG time before that way of thinking is broken.

And as for the other debate with the more & bigger bucks statement....In places where the herd reduction has not been dramatically implemented, that statement holds a ton of truth. Granted those places are few & far between, but I have seen the numbers of big bucks jump.

Alt was clearly mistaken when he claimed we'd have more and bigger bucks than ever before.He did not however,claim the 2.5 year old bucks would be bigger,regardless of howdeep you look into that statement.I think he was clearly trying to say that we'd have more and bigger bucks because we were saving a higher percentage of 1.5 year old bucks which would allowMORE bucks to makeit into older age classesthus making them BIGGER.He never even mentioned the size of the 2.5 year old bucks changing.Furthermore,age has nothing to do with genetics and studies show that antler size in not indicative of what bucks will do the breeding.

He may have been trying to say what you think he meant, but he didn't. He said there would be more and larger buck than ever before and the only way we would have larger buck than before ARs is if the size of the 2.5+ increased. Also, note that the PGC removed that claim from the Digest this year because it was clearly wrong and misleading. They also changed the claim that we should pass on BB to offset the doe heavy B/D ratio.
That is true and it means we will have more inferior 2.5+ buck doing the breeding, which is the exact opposite of what Alt was claiming.

What do you think dominant breeding was supposed to accomplish? Was it supposed to create smaller 2.5+ buck or were they just supposed be more macho?

Here's a little tidbit that old Bluebird knows about but has left out.

This is from Dr Krolls conclusions regarding Dr Desmaris and the Mississippi"high grading" claims

One of the flaws Dr Kroll pointed out with the Mississippi high grading theory is that often times, 1 1/2 year old bucks with inferior antlers are not genetically inferior but are merely the late born buck fawns from the previous year. IE: a buck fawn born in April of 06 will have a two month advantage over a fawn born in June of 06. By the time both bucks' antlers harden here in a few weeks, the two month older buck has benefited from a huge head start. The younger buck with the smaller rack could indeed have superior genes but we won't know that till he gets to around 4 1/2 which is the age where research has shown that late born bucks finally catch up.

Now take that little fact into consideration and rememvber that part of PA's planto harvest more does before the rut begins to make more sense. Less does available by rut time means a larger percentage gets bred in their first estrous cycle helpingto cause less late births.

Also, letting some bucks live through the concurrent gun season , provides breeding bucks for this years doe fawns who will attain the body necessary weight and come into estrous in mid December. Prior toAR's a doe coming into estrous after thebuck season was hard pressed to find a buck to breed her.

Earlier born fawns have better body weightsfor the coming winter and therefore a higher chance for survival. It's not just about antler size. It's about all around herd health.

Yes BT but don't you understnad if you take the OWDD times pie and divide it by the OWFDD that there may be a chance that the genetics of a buck may be diluted by then.

That is a mighty fine theory , but the PA deer proved it did not apply to PA. Even though the herd has been reduced by over 30% and we have had ARs since 2002, Dr. Rosenberry stated there has been no significant change in the breeding period.



That isn't even close to being true. There were always enough buck carried over to breed the few numbers of fawns that came into estrus after the buck season. ARs protect the highest percentage of buck in areas like 2G and fawn breeding rates are still some of the worst in the state.

BT,dominant breeding was supposed to occur and keep the younger bucks out of the picture as much as possible.This would allow the younger bucks to conserve more energy and go into winter in better shape.It sounds good on paper but the truth is,whitetail breeding is still a mystery.I've read studies where the biggest bucks never breed and otherstudies that show 1.5 year old bucks breed as many does as other age classes.Alt was full of crap,nodoubt about.Regardless,he never claimed the size of our 2.5 year old bucks would increase.When you testify for the USP,do yourself a favor and leave that part out.

Just to clarify DougE... When you address your postto BT Am I correct when I assume you mean Beenthere/Blueburd/deadeer/ddear? I certainly hope so[&:]