A Crack in the "Rock?"
01-29-2007, 12:14 PM
#41
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location:
Posts: 14
RE: A Crack in the "Rock?"
ORIGINAL: DougE
Most hunters have no idea how deer impact the habitat and most have no idea what good habitat should look like.I'd make a bet that the vast majority of hunters couldn't pick out preferred browse species and and identify non-preferred species.If hunters don't have this knowledge,they shouldn't have much of a say.It's as simple as that.There's many habitat tours accross the state each year and they illustrate exactly what impact the deer have on the habitat.I go on several each year and learn something new each time.I know of three tours this spring and I'll challenge anyone who disagrees with this deer management plan to come and prove that the PGC is wrong.Many baulk at these tours but we can never get any of the naysayers to show up.the evidence is out there that proves the need for herd reductions is real.Unfortunately,only a very small percentage of hunters ever make the effort to go out and see for themselves what's really happening.The UBP sponsors these tours every year and alot of their membership shows up.This organization has programs to get their membership involved with what's going on so they canhave informed opinions.When was the last time the USP offered a tour that shows exactly what's happening to the habitat?It's easier for them to make up wild accusations about montain lions and deer pawing trees.
Most hunters have no idea how deer impact the habitat and most have no idea what good habitat should look like.I'd make a bet that the vast majority of hunters couldn't pick out preferred browse species and and identify non-preferred species.If hunters don't have this knowledge,they shouldn't have much of a say.It's as simple as that.There's many habitat tours accross the state each year and they illustrate exactly what impact the deer have on the habitat.I go on several each year and learn something new each time.I know of three tours this spring and I'll challenge anyone who disagrees with this deer management plan to come and prove that the PGC is wrong.Many baulk at these tours but we can never get any of the naysayers to show up.the evidence is out there that proves the need for herd reductions is real.Unfortunately,only a very small percentage of hunters ever make the effort to go out and see for themselves what's really happening.The UBP sponsors these tours every year and alot of their membership shows up.This organization has programs to get their membership involved with what's going on so they canhave informed opinions.When was the last time the USP offered a tour that shows exactly what's happening to the habitat?It's easier for them to make up wild accusations about montain lions and deer pawing trees.
DougE, I am quoting just the habitat part of your reply to me. I feel you need to look at the habitat issue with a more open view. Blaming only the deer for regeneration problems is easy for many to do. Blaming tree regeneration problems on man-made pollution such as acid rain would cause a fight the deer blamers do not want to attempt to fight. It is cheaper now to remove the deer so the new saplings grow. Going after the power generation industry with money and their political clout would give them a expensive fight over acid rain vs tree regeneration. Poor soil pH from acid rain is effecting tree regeneration. If soils were healthy the saplings would out grow the browsing from deer. The fenced areas by the PGC and the DCNR are not scientifically sound methods of determining deer impacts. You must put deer in the fenced areas in varying quantities to measure their impact. Fenced areas with no deer only prove that PA must go to zero deer densities to achieve regeneration. New York State with eight other states sued the Ohio coal burning power plants for acid deposition and won that case in federal court. The Ohio coal burners were ordered to install millions of dollars of scrubbers to reduce their emissions. Funny how New York and eight other eastern states identified acid deposition as a severe forestry problem, but PA denies its' impact. Sportsmen are not a powerful corporation that have the money, resources or ranks to fight this tree regeneration problem. Let alone stopping the killing of the deer so another industry can make money now. They are a pawn being traded off so another move can be made to grow hardwood trees.
01-29-2007, 12:25 PM
#42
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location:
Posts: 576
RE: A Crack in the "Rock?"
Linehog,
Acid rain and many other things contribute to the habitat equation. If a farmer grows 100 acres of corn each year and acid rain kills off 50% of that corn he still can only support he can't raise more cattle than he can feed with a 50% return on his corn. Same with deer. If acid rain is damaging the habitat then there needs to be less deer for the habitat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrying_capacity
Acid rain and many other things contribute to the habitat equation. If a farmer grows 100 acres of corn each year and acid rain kills off 50% of that corn he still can only support he can't raise more cattle than he can feed with a 50% return on his corn. Same with deer. If acid rain is damaging the habitat then there needs to be less deer for the habitat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrying_capacity
Carrying capacity usually refers to the biological carrying capacity of a population level that can be supported for an organism, given the quantity of food, habitat, water and other life infrastructure present.
01-29-2007, 12:42 PM
#44
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location:
Posts: 14
RE: A Crack in the "Rock?"
ORIGINAL: T_in_PA3
Linehog,
Acid rain and many other things contribute to the habitat equation. If a farmer grows 100 acres of corn each year and acid rain kills off 50% of that corn he still can only support he can't raise more cattle than he can feed with a 50% return on his corn. Same with deer. If acid rain is damaging the habitat then there needs to be less deer for the habitat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrying_capacity
Linehog,
Acid rain and many other things contribute to the habitat equation. If a farmer grows 100 acres of corn each year and acid rain kills off 50% of that corn he still can only support he can't raise more cattle than he can feed with a 50% return on his corn. Same with deer. If acid rain is damaging the habitat then there needs to be less deer for the habitat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrying_capacity
Carrying capacity usually refers to the biological carrying capacity of a population level that can be supported for an organism, given the quantity of food, habitat, water and other life infrastructure present.
Also, why would you not address the acid rain issue? We can correct it.Your solution is kill the deer because coal burning power plants contributed to the cause.
01-29-2007, 01:00 PM
#46
Typical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 522
RE: A Crack in the "Rock?"
It's amazing how they all agree with one side of the debate???
Ain't amazing to me, have seen it all before.
They have nowconvinced me that I was wrong and that theyare right though...just by sheerfarce of numbers.
Ain't amazing to me, have seen it all before.
They have nowconvinced me that I was wrong and that theyare right though...just by sheerfarce of numbers.
01-29-2007, 01:06 PM
#47
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location:
Posts: 14
RE: A Crack in the "Rock?"
T_in_PA3, You can search google the same as I.Read some more here on acid rain here.
announced its intent to sue the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA) for emitting more than 3 million tons of smog and acid rain pollutants from coal-fired
http://www.npca.org/media_center/press_releases/2000/page.jsp?itemID=27598846
It also plays a role in the formation of acid rain, which damages trees,
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/PRESS/sulfur-dioxide2-6-2006.html
State Attorney General Roy Cooper sued the Tennessee Valley Authority on Monday, ... The pollutants create haze and soot, foul creeks and lead to acid rain,
http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/394642.html
TVA lawsuit Q&A ... On behalf of the people of North Carolina, Cooper filed suit against the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA)
http://www.smokymountainnews.com/issues/02_06/02_08_06/tvasuite.html
announced its intent to sue the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA) for emitting more than 3 million tons of smog and acid rain pollutants from coal-fired
http://www.npca.org/media_center/press_releases/2000/page.jsp?itemID=27598846
It also plays a role in the formation of acid rain, which damages trees,
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/PRESS/sulfur-dioxide2-6-2006.html
State Attorney General Roy Cooper sued the Tennessee Valley Authority on Monday, ... The pollutants create haze and soot, foul creeks and lead to acid rain,
http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/394642.html
TVA lawsuit Q&A ... On behalf of the people of North Carolina, Cooper filed suit against the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA)
http://www.smokymountainnews.com/issues/02_06/02_08_06/tvasuite.html
01-29-2007, 01:24 PM
#49
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location:
Posts: 576
RE: A Crack in the "Rock?"
You guys just don't get it. I'll freely admit that acid rain is a problem. It reduces the carrying capacity (number of deer) that the habitat can support. Have deer at a higher population than the carrying capacity, effected by acid rain, the deer will then effect the habitat as well. Only so much food to go around and acid rain is reducing that dinner plate.
I
I
01-29-2007, 01:25 PM
#50
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location:
Posts: 14
RE: A Crack in the "Rock?"
ORIGINAL: LineHog
T_in_PA3, You can search google the same as I.Read some more here on acid rain here.
announced its intent to sue the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA) for emitting more than 3 million tons of smog and acid rain pollutants from coal-fired
http://www.npca.org/media_center/press_releases/2000/page.jsp?itemID=27598846
It also plays a role in the formation of acid rain, which damages trees,
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/PRESS/sulfur-dioxide2-6-2006.html
State Attorney General Roy Cooper sued the Tennessee Valley Authority on Monday, ... The pollutants create haze and soot, foul creeks and lead to acid rain,
http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/394642.html
TVA lawsuit Q&A ... On behalf of the people of North Carolina, Cooper filed suit against the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA)
http://www.smokymountainnews.com/issues/02_06/02_08_06/tvasuite.html
T_in_PA3, You can search google the same as I.Read some more here on acid rain here.
announced its intent to sue the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA) for emitting more than 3 million tons of smog and acid rain pollutants from coal-fired
http://www.npca.org/media_center/press_releases/2000/page.jsp?itemID=27598846
It also plays a role in the formation of acid rain, which damages trees,
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/PRESS/sulfur-dioxide2-6-2006.html
State Attorney General Roy Cooper sued the Tennessee Valley Authority on Monday, ... The pollutants create haze and soot, foul creeks and lead to acid rain,
http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/394642.html
TVA lawsuit Q&A ... On behalf of the people of North Carolina, Cooper filed suit against the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA)
http://www.smokymountainnews.com/issues/02_06/02_08_06/tvasuite.html
New York acid rain lawsuit
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=new+york+acid+rain+lawsuit& btnG=Search