Not aimed at you T. I understand completely what is going in PA. I've been to exclosures and have seen the night and day bewtween fenced and unfenced cuts of the same age. Both most asuredly receive the same rainfall as they are in the same SF. I was asking LineHog that question since he's bringing up all of these lawsuit links.

This is like Jim Slinksygoingon his deer parades and tells everyone that deer defecating is fertilizing the woods yet when he presented that to his "Icon of Icons", Severinhaus' reply was, " I don't know about that."

Your funny...State'ssued. You can pretend it is nota issue or a cause. The deer did it and the solution is to rid the land of them.

Not pretending. I've never heard one biologist say acid rain is not an issue. NEVER! However, the PGC is not in the business of managing rain, that's the DEP. Perhaps you should be posting your info for them. Better yet call you Rep and let him/her know that you'd like the DEP to file a suit against coal-burning companies and let the PGC do what they are supposed to, manage PA's birds and mammals.

2ndly, I've never heard anyone from the PGC say that the deer management plan is to "rid the land of them".

How about a Forest Hydrologist?

PENN STATE EXPERT BLAMES FOREST PROBLEM ON ACID RAIN, NOT DEER
"They can kill all the deer, but it will take a lot more than that to fix the forests," he said. "The problem is that nothing is growing well. In places where soils are not buffered by naturally occurring calcium, there is no regeneration of acid-sensitive tree species. I'm offering a different hypothesis -- the deer are not the main problem."
http://aginfo.psu.edu/news/may02/acid.html

What ever will we do when the Elk begin to damage the forest. Have you ever seen what an elk can do to a tree when he rubs off the velvet? How much more food (browse) does a 450 to 800 pound elk eat as opposed to a 125 pound deer? Will PA have an extended Elk season to kill of those awfull tree killers? Maybe we can have an Elk Bow Season. Thats it!

But now we're straying away from the threads thrust and that is the loss of credibility of the Penn Fed. It certainly appears that the "Stay The Cours" leadership is not in tune with it's membership. It should have been evident when Jeremy Valantine made that damaging statement and the leadership stood behind him and defended is statement.
Perhaps Penn Fed members really don't need to own a handgun. I wonder if Melody and Ted O own a hand gun. It'sclear that jeremy doesn't. Or does he.......

I never did figure the Elkthing out. No habitat for deer, but plenty for Elk?

Linehog,the USP plays the acid rain card way too much.Much of their argument centers around red oak because they claim the reduction of the deer herd is directly tied to the timber profit of red oak.They claim oaks will not regenerate in soils with a ph between 4-5 and that's 100% totaly false.Oaks actually like acidic soils and do just fine under those parameters.I can show you phenominal oak regeneration behind fences and in areas where the deer herd has been greatly reduced.In most cases,the soil is very acidic and the only differeance is less deer.

I'm not blaming the deer for everything.Many things have affected the habitat including deer,fire suppression,forestry practices,insects and a more mature forest.Still,it doesn't change the fact that much of our habitat is junk and the carrying capacity is much lower

What really causes me to wonder is how the timber barrons can expect we hunters to provide them with ideal conditions when they contribute nothing. They take from the forest (and game lands) and put nothing back. They don't lime. They don't burn, they just take.

Everyone including DougE (dce) is concerned about the profitabe timber. Red Oak, Black Cherry, hemlock, Veneer trees, etc. Never does anyone say or do anything about adding to the habitat to benefit the creatures who live there.

Did you ever see a timber or paper and pulp company plant a Hawthorne? How about a Paw-Paw tree? How many Persimon trees have you encountersd on a Game Lands or ina State Forest? Ever seen a High Bush Cranberry bush?

When they timber a Game Lands they are only required to plant the roads they make/use. Guess what they plant? Rye grass. Grouse, Turkeys, and Rabbit, and Snowshoes eat a lot of that...NOT! They could give a rat's red rump about the wildlife, yet we are supposed to cater to the timber companies will.

DougE, please show us the documentation that states Red Oake thrive in highly acidic soil.

But once again, DougE (dce) is trying to take this thread off on a tangent (high-jack). It's about the Penn Fed Presidents statement DougF (dce). It's about the failing of that organization to honestly represent it's members at the PGC meeting. Either Mr. Ali knows what he's talking about or he's being led by the nose. You can't have it both ways, it's one or the other.

Reminds me of an insurance salesman trying to sell a $Million Dollar policy to a dieing man, knowing full well the insurance company won't pay off on a pre-existing condition.

Linehog,there's been ton's of studies done with deer fenced in at different densities.They have a good handle on how many deer different types of habitat can withstain without damage.Therefore,your assessment about the exclosures only show what a dd of zero will produce is wrong.Besides,many of the exclosures have deer in them year round,especially the older electric fences.Let me ask you this.Do you think liming our forests would help?the studies have been done.Do you want to know the results?

Crazy horse,there is no more concern for elk rubbing their antlers on trees than there is for deer damaging trees with their hooves.The concern is about the amount of overbrowsing deer do.Elk are primarily grazers and they don't do anywhere near as much damage to the forests as deer do.

I don't belong to the fed of sportsman's club so I don't gives a rat's behind about how much their membership is falling.I do find it ironic that a distinguished USP member is questioning the membership figures for another sportsman's group.That's just classic.How many members does the USP have these days?

Red oak does in fact grow fine in soil with a PH between 4-5.Ask any credible forester and they'll tell you that red oak likes slightly acidic soil.Once again,you can take a trip out here and we can take some soil samples in areas with excellent oak regeneration and send them away.When I built my house,I had the soil checked prior to planting a yard and it was 4.5.That's not good for growing grass but the oak seedlings do very well until the deer clip every single one of them each spring.The only place any of them survive is inside the fence that goes around my propane tank.Dcnr has experimented with lime and they found that it did nothing for the oak but the red maple and bracken ferns responded favorably.Sorry guys but your acid rain theory holds no water.If acid rain was the reason for the lack of regeneration,why do the oaks grow well behind a fence?

I don't know what good it would be to sell a dying an life insurance.Most likely the policy would be declined and the agent would have wasted his time.Much like you guys did byfiling a frivelous lawsuit that got laughed out of court.