A Crack in the "Rock?"
01-29-2007, 05:46 AM
#21
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location:
Posts: 576
RE: A Crack in the "Rock?"
I don't know what kind of issue polling UBP leadership does of its members, but whatever it is, itseems to beabout as accurate as the PGC's deer harvest figures.
You admit you have no idea what the UBP does but you know it is not right. Yep, that makes sense.
01-29-2007, 06:54 AM
#23
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location:
Posts: 576
RE: A Crack in the "Rock?"
Because I know better than to believe what is posted on these message boards I did some investigating of my own to see what the whole story is. It appears that the UBP had a high membership of 6000 a few years ago when the big issue of crossbows in archery season was of concern. People jumped on the "bandwagon". Since then membership has stabilized at the current level that it had been at.
No, I am not a UBP member. Unaffiliated, unbiased.
No, I am not a UBP member. Unaffiliated, unbiased.
01-29-2007, 07:26 AM
#24
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,262
RE: A Crack in the "Rock?"
Linehog,It's always been easy to look around and see that we had far too many deer for way too long in the northern tier.The habitat is terrible in this part of the state andI never had a problem with herd reductions.However,I did have a problem with many of the claims Alt made.It really bothered me that in 2003 he claimed the herd was stillgrowing after several years of record harvests.I never had a problem with less deer but that line of thinking was absurd.the model they used was obviously flawed and they did admit that.Much of the blame was placed on grund because it was his model.Who else shouldthey blame?
As far as them continuing with the plan.Even though they new the 1.6 million figure was wrong,that isn't true.When seen a dramatic decrease in the allocations in 2G where much of the complaining is centered.
Are hunters mad about the amount of deer out there?Absolutely.I don't have any idea what the percentages are but it doesn't sound unreasonable that more than 50% of hunters are discouraged by the amount of deer they see.I also imagine that any sportsman's group that supports HR is seeing a decrease in their membership.Deer hunting is a hot topic and many hunters are ticked off.Does that mean their right and the PGC should cave in and eliminate doe season?No way.Most hunters have no idea how deer impact the habitat and most have no idea what good habitat should look like.I'd make a bet that the vast majority of hunters couldn't pick out preferred browse species and and identify non-preferred species.If hunters don't have this knowledge,they shouldn't have much of a say.It's as simple as that.There's many habitat tours accross the state each year and they illustrate exactly what impact the deer have on the habitat.I go on several each year and learn something new each time.I know of three tours this spring and I'll challenge anyone who disagrees with this deer management plan to come and prove that the PGC is wrong.Many baulk at these tours but we can never get any of the naysayers to show up.the evidence is out there that proves the need for herd reductions is real.Unfortunately,only a very small percentage of hunters ever make the effort to go out and see for themselves what's really happening.The UBP sponsors these tours every year and alot of their membership shows up.This organization has programs to get their membership involved with what's going on so they canhave informed opinions.When was the last time the USP offered a tour that shows exactly what's happening to the habitat?It's easier for them to make up wild accusations about montain lions and deer pawing trees.
As far as them continuing with the plan.Even though they new the 1.6 million figure was wrong,that isn't true.When seen a dramatic decrease in the allocations in 2G where much of the complaining is centered.
Are hunters mad about the amount of deer out there?Absolutely.I don't have any idea what the percentages are but it doesn't sound unreasonable that more than 50% of hunters are discouraged by the amount of deer they see.I also imagine that any sportsman's group that supports HR is seeing a decrease in their membership.Deer hunting is a hot topic and many hunters are ticked off.Does that mean their right and the PGC should cave in and eliminate doe season?No way.Most hunters have no idea how deer impact the habitat and most have no idea what good habitat should look like.I'd make a bet that the vast majority of hunters couldn't pick out preferred browse species and and identify non-preferred species.If hunters don't have this knowledge,they shouldn't have much of a say.It's as simple as that.There's many habitat tours accross the state each year and they illustrate exactly what impact the deer have on the habitat.I go on several each year and learn something new each time.I know of three tours this spring and I'll challenge anyone who disagrees with this deer management plan to come and prove that the PGC is wrong.Many baulk at these tours but we can never get any of the naysayers to show up.the evidence is out there that proves the need for herd reductions is real.Unfortunately,only a very small percentage of hunters ever make the effort to go out and see for themselves what's really happening.The UBP sponsors these tours every year and alot of their membership shows up.This organization has programs to get their membership involved with what's going on so they canhave informed opinions.When was the last time the USP offered a tour that shows exactly what's happening to the habitat?It's easier for them to make up wild accusations about montain lions and deer pawing trees.
01-29-2007, 07:39 AM
#25
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,262
RE: A Crack in the "Rock?"
How exactly is the UBP apoorly run organization and how is their leadership in bed with the PGC?More specifically,what constitutes being in bed with anyone.I'm a UBP memeber but I have no leadership role or a desire to get that involved.I do however,have several good friends that arepart of their leadership and it interests me to hear how they do a poor job of running that organization.I can tell you for a fact that their leadershiptakes alot of time to get out and get informed.
01-29-2007, 08:28 AM
#26
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,262
RE: A Crack in the "Rock?"
Ire-read your post and I still see no evidence that any of their leadership is in bed with the PGC,whatever that means.
They upset alot of members a few years ago when they supported the inclusion of the early muzzleloader season.That was done to support the deer management plan by getting more does killed before they had a chance to breed.They supported that in spite of the fact that much of their memebershipdidn't want to share the woods with firearms and muzzleloaders.
They upset alot of members a few years ago when they supported the inclusion of the early muzzleloader season.That was done to support the deer management plan by getting more does killed before they had a chance to breed.They supported that in spite of the fact that much of their memebershipdidn't want to share the woods with firearms and muzzleloaders.
01-29-2007, 08:29 AM
#27
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location:
Posts: 430
RE: A Crack in the "Rock?"
"DougF" (dce) it's easy to lay the blame on Grund, He isn't here to defend himself. Alt quit early also. Now I ask you, what scientist quits his own major project before completion?
The fact is that there was a meeting at Commissioner ("Commandatore") Isabella's home about 3 years ago with Cal DuBrock in attendance, and when questions were asked about Urban Deer Management with regard to the Deer Program, Grund stated "We dropped the ball on that issue." Now how could a major asspect of deer management be passed over by a professional scientist such as Dr. Alt claimed to be?
In fact, it wasn't until last year that a Urban Deer Management Plan was drawn up. Who would ever call that professional planing?
The UBP did get a Bear bow season. That should have helped increase trhe number of members in their organization. It appears that it did not. I really don't know what the PGC can do to help these two sportsmen's organizations improve their memberships.
As far as game Land Tours are concerned I took one of those tours 2 years ago on Game Lands 12 and 36 in Bradford County. What I saw was fenced in areas of varying size and very little habitat improvement. I don't consider timbering operations "Habitat Improvement" unless there is an introduction of game benificial trees and shrubs. (Which there was not.)Simply regenerating what already existed is not an improvement by any means.
Smoke and mirrors my friend, smoke and mirrors.
The fact is that there was a meeting at Commissioner ("Commandatore") Isabella's home about 3 years ago with Cal DuBrock in attendance, and when questions were asked about Urban Deer Management with regard to the Deer Program, Grund stated "We dropped the ball on that issue." Now how could a major asspect of deer management be passed over by a professional scientist such as Dr. Alt claimed to be?
In fact, it wasn't until last year that a Urban Deer Management Plan was drawn up. Who would ever call that professional planing?
The UBP did get a Bear bow season. That should have helped increase trhe number of members in their organization. It appears that it did not. I really don't know what the PGC can do to help these two sportsmen's organizations improve their memberships.
As far as game Land Tours are concerned I took one of those tours 2 years ago on Game Lands 12 and 36 in Bradford County. What I saw was fenced in areas of varying size and very little habitat improvement. I don't consider timbering operations "Habitat Improvement" unless there is an introduction of game benificial trees and shrubs. (Which there was not.)Simply regenerating what already existed is not an improvement by any means.
Smoke and mirrors my friend, smoke and mirrors.
01-29-2007, 08:50 AM
#28
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,262
RE: A Crack in the "Rock?"
Crazyhorse,you'll never hear me defend anything Alt said or did.I never cared for his tactics or the way he sold this deer management plan.It's probably the only thing you and I will ever agree upon.
Idon't think it's up to the PGC to see that any club's memberships are increased.It's up to the sportsman to get out and see the facts concerning the issues.Unfortunately,a very high percentageof sportsman are totaly uniformed about a variety of issues.The shear number of hunters that believe all the conspiracy theories about about lions and stocked coyotes is more than enough proof.
I go to several habitat tours a year and each one proves withouta shadow of a doubt how much damage the deer have caused.There's no smoke and mirrors.It's as clear as a bell.
Idon't think it's up to the PGC to see that any club's memberships are increased.It's up to the sportsman to get out and see the facts concerning the issues.Unfortunately,a very high percentageof sportsman are totaly uniformed about a variety of issues.The shear number of hunters that believe all the conspiracy theories about about lions and stocked coyotes is more than enough proof.
I go to several habitat tours a year and each one proves withouta shadow of a doubt how much damage the deer have caused.There's no smoke and mirrors.It's as clear as a bell.
01-29-2007, 09:27 AM
#29
Typical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 522
RE: A Crack in the "Rock?"
I'm still trying to figure out why someone originally posted a figure of "30 to 40%" and it somehowbecame 40% in all subsequent posts?
Like I said before, Boop continually asked Ali to pick a range to define what Ali had meant when he said "many" memberswere concerned about deer numbers. Boop tossed out several ranges, pressing forone to be picked. When Boop asked if it could be as high as30 to 40%...Ali said it might be as high as "30 to 40%". Mr. Ali also said he had no way of knowing what the figure might be, since he wouldn't hear fromPFSC delegates representingtheir individualareas of PA,until the March convention.
Ms Zullinger may well have a better handle on what percentage of members are upset about deer numbers, since she probably gets more direct input thanAli, (as president) does? Might expect they'd call or email her with their opinions, before they'd try tocontact their delegates or officers? Her email contactis easy to find: it'sin every newsletter and bit of info that goes out to members via emailed releases.
Renewing the usual attacks against PFSC and UBP, must be the post-lawsuit strategy now, since it's popped up on several forums over the weekend. Hey Bailey Hill, is that your picture I see on USP's website, along with the firsttrad-bow kill?
Like I said before, Boop continually asked Ali to pick a range to define what Ali had meant when he said "many" memberswere concerned about deer numbers. Boop tossed out several ranges, pressing forone to be picked. When Boop asked if it could be as high as30 to 40%...Ali said it might be as high as "30 to 40%". Mr. Ali also said he had no way of knowing what the figure might be, since he wouldn't hear fromPFSC delegates representingtheir individualareas of PA,until the March convention.
Ms Zullinger may well have a better handle on what percentage of members are upset about deer numbers, since she probably gets more direct input thanAli, (as president) does? Might expect they'd call or email her with their opinions, before they'd try tocontact their delegates or officers? Her email contactis easy to find: it'sin every newsletter and bit of info that goes out to members via emailed releases.
Renewing the usual attacks against PFSC and UBP, must be the post-lawsuit strategy now, since it's popped up on several forums over the weekend. Hey Bailey Hill, is that your picture I see on USP's website, along with the firsttrad-bow kill?
01-29-2007, 09:44 AM
#30
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location:
Posts: 430
RE: A Crack in the "Rock?"
Denny, are you now saying that the President of Penn Fed spoke out of turn? Are you saying that he was mis-informed of the actual figures of disgruntled members? Was Mr. Ali addressing the Board of Commissioner ill prepared? This does not speak well for a president of what some consider a major PA sportsmen's organization.
In fact, I remember something similar pertaining to the Penn Fed when athe previous membership chairman (Jeremy Valantine) made a statement that he would prefer to attend a "Sex Pistols" concert rather than sit in a cold tree stand waiting for a guarenteed 10 point buck to come by and that he didn't see the need for anyone to own a hand gun. As I recall melody and Ted O went to great lengths to protect and defend this fellows statements. Is jeremy still active in the organization?
I
In fact, I remember something similar pertaining to the Penn Fed when athe previous membership chairman (Jeremy Valantine) made a statement that he would prefer to attend a "Sex Pistols" concert rather than sit in a cold tree stand waiting for a guarenteed 10 point buck to come by and that he didn't see the need for anyone to own a hand gun. As I recall melody and Ted O went to great lengths to protect and defend this fellows statements. Is jeremy still active in the organization?
I