Todd1700

Amazing that no one has been able to duplicate a accidental discharge on bolt close or release of the safety on any unmodified Remington rifle in countless hours of trying to capture it on film and yet 2 people in this obscure internet thread alone have seen it. One of them twice. WOW! What are the odds?

Kind of reminds me of the people who claim the very first expandable broadhead they ever used failed to open. I and many of my friends have been using them for years and never had one fail to open. Hell, we have even tried tying them closed with dental floss and shot them into targets. Still couldn't get them to fail. Hundreds of heads used by dozens of friends and never a single failure to open. And yet every year dozens of people come on here at the start of bow season to claim that they lost a deer because "THE FIRST ONE THEY EVER TRIED FAILED TO OPEN". LOL!

If the internet had a motto it should be 99.99999999 percent steaming bull#### information and the other 0.00000001 percent of info should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

But here is some good viewing on the Remington rifle subject.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjmOS...layer_embedded

Topgun 3006

Todd1700---Did you read the explanation and look at the schematic done by the expert gunsmith in the link I provided? It may take millions of times for the discharge to happen and it has not been disputed that it's impossible to replicate because of that, but if the guy who invented it said it should have been fixed, whcih he did more than once, I'll take his word for it! There sure are a lot of people like yourself and CO that come on threads like they are experts and yet they don't have any idea how the trigger is even made or is different that all others, but yet say it can't happen without pulling the trigger. Absolutely unreal when we are talking life and death possibilities and you guys don't even study the issue and only spout BS! Also, if it happens in a particular gun, it is more prone to happen again than in others that haven't had the problem. Again I would ask that any of you that say it can't happen to please read the link I provided so that you understand the problem that has existed for decades and why it is much more prone to happen with that particular trigger design. Thank you!

Todd1700

And yet two people out of the 4 or 5 participating in this discussion have seen it happen a combined total of 3 times. If you want to do something useful go calculate the odds on that and get back to me.

I don't know what makes you think you have a superior knowledge of firearms vs me when you don't know me from Adams house cat. But let me tell you, I can smell 2 grams of bulls### hidden in a clorox factory. And there is some being sprayed around pretty heavily here.

Nomercy448

Frankly, there's a simple solution. If you drop your weapon, you check it. Period. When the Rem triggers have slipped and fired upon release of the safety, which I agree can and does happen, it was because they took an impact, and guys didn't open the bolt and check the mechanism before they went back to "business as usual".

Messing around in my shop, I have been able to cause 700's to fail like this in the past, but again, all you have to do is open them up, which resets the trigger, and go about your way.

It wasn't 2yrs ago on this board that someone made a similar statement about the Savage Accutrigger being junk because it could fire with the safety on. He posted a video of a Savage, he pulls the trigger WITHOUT the accu-blade, and it clicked. However, he mistakenly assumed this meant the rifle would have fired, which it would NOT have done. The sear would be transfered to the accu-blade, so if the shooter weren't mindful, and pulled the blade, which would be MUCH heavier than usual, yes, it would go off without fully depressing the trigger itself, but again, if he dropped the rifle, and opened the bolt to perform a function test, unloaded, it would have rectified the problem.

Same deal with the Remingtons.

Frankly, any mechanical device can fail, especially if you have designed an experiment to target it's weakness. Ultimately, it's your job to keep your muzzle pointed in a safe direction, and your job to do a function test SAFELY following any event that might cause damage to your weapon.

If I'm brutally honest, I can name 3 times in my life that I've dropped a weapon. One My shoulder sling broke and it fell of my back. The 2nd, I fell down a creekbank when a ledge gave way, and the 3rd, my revolver fell out of my holster that had came unsnapped while I was climbing into my deerstand. Taking the time to do 3 function tests SAFELY over the last 20yrs is nothing.

Topgun 3006

Todd1700---Nowhere in this thread have I ever intimated that I have superior knowledge over you or anyone else! What I have stated and have asked you to do and apparently you haven't bothered, is to read the article done by an expert gunsmith to find out the facts on this unique trigger like I, and others, have done. Nothing in the article speaks of Remington, but rather the functions of this particular trigger, which by sheer design is more likely to cause problems with the extra piece than other designs. More is not better in this particular scenario. You and some of these others would obviously rather argue and spout BS over something you haven't read up on than just read the article and gain a little knowledge on the subject. When you are an expert gunsmith and can refute what others that know what they are talking about and have written articles on, maybe then you should come back and tell us how you know more than they do and why! Again we are not talking about keeping a gun pointed in the right direction. We are talking about the unique trigger in the device which can cause this problem much easier than a normally designed trigger mechanism. If you can't take time to read the article, please don't come back on the thread and waste people's time by just making more smartass remarks!

Todd1700

I have not only read it I am very familiar with Mr Belk who wrote it. Do you know who Jack Belk is? He is a professional witness for ambulance chasing attorneys who sue gun companies. Over 50 percent of his yearly income is earned by climbing on to a witness stand and saying whatever the lawyers paying him want him to say about the gun or gun company in question. He has never done any actually testing to get a bolt action rifle of any type to fire without pulling the trigger. None!

And he's your unbiased ace in the hole that you are trying to convince me with? Who do you go to for advice on handgun legislation? Sarah Brady? LOL!

No one outside of CNBC has ever video taped a supposed accidental discharge. When that same gun they filmed was handed over to Remington and tested in front of neutral observers they could not get it to go off accidentally under any circumstances. In fact none of the so called "accident guns" involved in a lawsuit against Remington have ever been made to accidentally discharge by experts for the defense or the plaintiff. Despite the fact that many of them were in pretty atrocious condition. Remember this is the same company (NBC) that rigged a bogus car accident test with cans of gasoline to get a GMC truck to catch on fire back when some people were claiming that they were prone to catch fire in an accident. The same company (NBC) that just recently got busted again for releasing edited audio tapes of Zimmerman in the Trayvon Martin case which made him appear racist. Fine if you want to trust them but they have a pretty sh###y track record; are liberally biased; and are rabidly anti-gun. They would consider it the achievement of a lifetime to destroy a major gun company like Remington.

Topgun 3006

You, Sir, have now proven that you have no reading comprehension whatsoever when you keep bringing NBC into this discussion! I have openly stated on this thread that I have never watched a single minute of any NBC documentary, or any other TV affiliation production, regarding this subject and am not basing my thoughts on anything they may have come out with! I'm fully aware of the liberal bias of the media. Please answer one last question and then I'm done with this thread. What is your response regarding the fact that Mike Walker, the designer of the trigger and an engineer for many years with Remington, states exactly what the Belk article brings out regarding the connector that causes the problem we're discussing? Are you trying to tell me that you will not even pay any attention when the man who invented the system said more than once that the design needed to be changed and apparently asked Remington numerous times to spend a few cents per gun decades ago when they were first put into production to lessen chances of accidental discharges?

nyorange

You have never watched a single minute? Your undying passion appears to be bashing Remington yet you are going to claim you never watched the single biggest major media report which supports your claims? Thats like being diagnosed with cancer and not reading about the newly discovered cure. Did you refuse to watch because it might affect your objectivity?

Topgun 3006

"You have never watched a single minute? Your undying passion appears to be bashing Remington yet you are going to claim you never watched the single biggest major media report which supports your claims? Thats like being diagnosed with cancer and not reading about the newly discovered cure. Did you refuse to watch because it might affect your objectivity?

That's correct and since you don't know me from a can of paint, you don't know what I watch and don't watch. FYI I very seldom watch any of the regular channels because with my cable setup I get enough sports and outdoor channels that I dont have to watch all the crap that the media puts out. I didn't even know about this issue with Remington until I started reading stuff on hunting websites about it after the story broke on TV. Rather than be biased and tune in to watch what everyone was already calling a hatchet job by NBC, I started dealving into the court cases and documents that were available on the internet. I guess a lot of that came from trying to be as unbiased as I could be from my 30 year career as a LE Investigator where you try to not assume anything because if you do you might miss the most important piece of information to break a case open. It really didn't matter to me that the trigger mechanism we're talking about was only in Remington products because I have never owned any of their firearms. I have no idea what NBC tried to show or do when they ran the issue on TV, other than what I've read in threads like this on the internet, and that's why I've repeatedly stated that I can't and won't make any comments regarding posters saying Remington had a hatchet job done on them. Just the fact that Mike Walker has made sworn statements about the issue and that there have been documents introduced into court cases showing he asked Remington to change his design and that the top brass put in writing that they decided to leave it as is because they figured it was only about 10% of the rifles that they had manufactured was good enough for me. A failure rate of possibly 10% on anything that is produced is WAY too high a rate when it should be a fraction of 1 percent! To think that the 10% figure that was quoted in court documents that were introduced more than once involved a major part of a firearm is more than disturbing, don't you think? Court documents show that they could have changed the design that Mike Walker asked for at only a few cents per rifle and they probably didn't do it for two reasons. One being that it was more money to manufacture each piece, even though it was such a small amount and secondly that they were afraid that it would get out to the public and cause an undue hardship for the company trying to explain what they were doing. It appears that instead of doing that change they decided to emphasize keeping a firearm pointed in the proper direction in case it went off. That is all well and good, but appears to be for the wrong purpose and only to try and lessen their culpability in any future lawsuit that came up involving the trigger connector problem.

Topgun 3006

If you did any people searching on the internet at all like I did you would know that Walker is older than dirt now and worked as a Remington engineer way back decades ago when he designed the trigger for those rifles in the late 40s and patented it in 1950. Remington stayed with them and then carried them over into the 700series when it was introduced. You guys are trying to poke holes in things without doing any investigative work and making yourselves look like jackasses in this discussion! Too bad you're not on a witness stand somewhere where an attorney would cut you to pieces when you make stupid statements like that! This was already covered earlier in this thread when it was brought up in that post you just reposted! Walker retired from Remington many moons ago in case you haven't looked any of this up and it appears you haven't! This is right off the internet just by googling "Mike Walker":
Inventor Mike Walker
The Remington trigger, which critics say is the cause of inadvertent firings, was designed in the 1940's by a young engineer named Mike Walker. Now retired and in his late 90’s...

Here is another little snippet of information taken from an article on the internet:
Walker himself advocated a mechanism that would have held the trigger and connector in place while the safety was on, but internal company documents show Remington rejected Walker’s “trigger block” because of the cost—estimated in 1948 to be an additional 5 ½ cents per gun.
In a statement to CNBC, Remington says the 700 “has been free of defects since it was first produced.” But in 2007, Remington introduced a new firing mechanism for the 700 that includes the feature Mike Walker had proposed nearly 60 years earlier. The new trigger system, marketed as the “X-Mark Pro,” also eliminates Walker’s trigger connector. A source close to Remington tells CNBC the connector was removed because it had become the focus of so many lawsuits.

***One last thing and I'm done with this thread because there's nothing more to say. His given name is Merle. His birthday is May 5 and if he hasn't died since I looked all this stuff up a couple years ago I believe he'll be 100 in a few weeks. In trying to find out if he's still alive, I ran into this short video interview on the internet that he apparently did during the time NBC was putting their story together and it pretty wells sums up this whole thing. This is the first video I've watched regarding the subject and I don't think I need to watch anything else because it pretty much covers the entire matter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iis8nxGl-hQ