HuntingNet.com Forums - Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

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RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

I vaguely read through all the posts, mostly looking for indiscretions, violations and such which I found many of. Remember people, we are all in this together and being at odds is our biggest problem in the fight for our rights.

So forgive me if I sound redundant and someone made my point.

That being said, I think we need to take into consideration what we consider too light of an arrow. I shoot just over a 400 gr arrow. I don't consider this too light considering the speed I'm shooting it at and the KE I am generating. I will totally agree that a heavier arrow will out penetrate a lighter one under many circumstances however it highly depends on those circumstances and the differences do become marginal under most bowhunters ethical limitations in their personal max yardages.

When I took the National Bowhunter Educational course, I was told my arrow was too light and I had no business hunting with it. The course was taught by two traditional advocates. This was about 8 yrs ago. They asked if anyone knew their arrows weight. I raised my hand, and said yes, 378 grains. They looked at me as if I was the devil himself. I then went on to argue with them about KE, momentum, speed..etc...and at that time, I completely passed thru every animal I took with that bow....So what was so wrong with my setup?

I challenged them to a penetration contest which they wanted no part of....of course they knew I would win with my TOO light an arrow.

Keep in mind in all your aguments for your setups.......I don't believe ArthurP singled anyone out in his original post...and I to a point agree with him even tho I argued opposite his position in my endeavor above. A heavier arrow is a better option than a TOO light an arrow but what is considered TOO light an arrow...I believe it is too light when someone actually dismisses the possibility of adequate penetration just to have the flat trajectory as to simply hit the animal....I don't believe anyone here as that theory, but if you do, then you are unethical.

Before we do go on hashing this out....let's first define TOO Light....I'd bet most of you who disagree with AP wiil do a turn about...and AP might come down a peg....

Like would anyone here shoot a 250 grain arrow just to get 350fps...I doubt it but I bet somewhere it's been done and this as a hunting setup....questionable.

Good Luck and Good Shooting

Rob

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

Carbon arrows penetrate better. I do['t know exactly why, but it IS true.

2 blade, cut on impact broadheads penetrate better. Fact

Heavy arrows pentrating better than light ? I haven't seen this to be true nor false, much depends on the arrow size and broadhead used. Heavier arrows will retain more energy downrange, thats a Fact.

Slow arrows suck ? Howard Hill and Fred Bear would beg to differ. I mean, how did American Indians kill game with such slow bows ?? Stupid comment bowshopper, uninformed and ignorant of the facts.

I am shooting a 500 grain Graphlex arrow this fall tipped with a 175 gr Zwickey Eskimo. I also have some Beaman ICS 500 shafts that weight 375 grains weighted that I can tip with the Zwickeys too. I like both setups equally well. I bet I don't get 160-170 fps , do ya like that blistering speed Bowshopper ??

Stealthycat's Photo's

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

My feelings on shoot flat to compensate for inadequate yardage judging skills:
There is no bow that shoots flat enough to make up for misjudged yardage. If someone is so deficient as to shoot at the same spot without regard for distance, I think they're going to miss, or worse, wound more game than they will kill cleanly. I feel if someone has that attitude they're going to take a shot without concern for distance. Is it beyond the range of their capabilities? It could well be. For some 25 yds is no big deal. Go to 35 yds and it's a different world. Small mistakes become big ones.
There is no replacement for knowing and practicing with your setup. I shoot one pin, but I know where to hold at ALL yardages from 5 to 40. I shoot fast bows, with what some consider light arrows (375 gr). But I work at judging yardage every time I shoot (almost daily). I don't feel safe in thinking I can "be in the ball park" by shooting a fast bow, without concerning myself with being "on the money" in judging yardage. There is no replacement for knowig the distance, and knowing where to hold AT THE KNOWN DISTANCE.
If you need a rangefinder, by all means use one. It's not a sin to admit you need one. It's a sin to shoot expecting your bow will make up for not knowing how far you're shot will be.
As I stated above I shoot one pin, fast bows. But I always concern myself with the yardage. That couple inch "one way or the other" can mean the difference between hitting both lungs, or just clipping one.
In a nutshell, I agree with Arthur in that shooting a fast bow to make up for not knowing the distance is wrong. Is it unethical? Just shooting the bow is not, shooting at a game animal that way is.

Phil.

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

Bobco

I have seen guys walk into a pro shop and the only concern they have about a bow is HOW FAST is it they dont care if it feels like a joy buzzer or sounds like a shot gun just how fast it is.

Just last week I was at the pro shop for a couple of hours and on 3 seperate times guys walked in and the only question they asked was how fast is this bow how fast is that bow.
The guys in the shop tried to get these guys to shoot different bows to see what one felt the best to them but no all they wanted was a fast bow cause their buddy said you need a fast bow.
2 of the 3 guys walked out with a bow without shooting it.

Too many people worry about how fast a bow is instead of the shoot ability of they bow and their own capabilities.

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

Ausie-guy,
Great story about the guys buying a bow an not shooting it!
And these are probably some of the guys making fun of my dinosaur Onieda shooting the unbelievably fast 208 fps.

Practice range estimation can be done on a football practice field using the yards lines to help visualize the target at x distance then practice stepping the distance off. I then move into an unmarked area for walking unknown distance shooting and then stepping off the distance.
Remember what is a 20 yard shot to me might or might not be a 20 yard to you but if we know what we believe that same distance is in regards to each other then we can communicate. I had an experiance that the guide I was hunting with was sure that the distance was x yards. I said no to me it is y and he got a little upset. Later I set up a target and ask him what the distance was and had already steped it off and written it down for me. We both were correct so that solved that issue and this was before the laser rangefinders were avaliable. Know your distances and trust yourself!

I hunt for myself and not anyone else so I take what I consider High Percentage shots and go from there. I try to share my experiences and reasoning for my decisions.

Greg

"Getting close to the game is the joy of Bowhunting for me, the harvest is a bonus."

Live 15 ft Python after eating a small Antelope!

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

Ausie, I guess my last post on this topic, was in response to the first sentence in you second last post.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Once again a topic has been changed from the original to a heavy v light arrow.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I just wanted to state my opinion that the weight of the arrow does have some merit in this topic.

I agree with you that it is a shame that one of the biggest factors that many people (and unfortunately many beginners) look at as being the most important factor in buying a bow is speed. It is also a shame that companies advertise speed and promote it so much. But I guess that if that is what people want, that is where the R&D is going to be directed, and changes in designs are going to focus on getting that arrow to fly faster. I wish however that the companies don't forget about us "silly" guys who are looking for different things in a bow. I, for one prefer a longer Axle to Axle, with some decent sized limbs, but there are not many being made out there anymore. Now I know that there are a lot of good shooters here, so please don't take this the wrong way. But speed is hard to control, and I think that many would agree to that. And I know that there are many people that feel that they can control all of that speed, when really they can't. It's a shame that the beginner archer is fooled into believing all this hype to buy the fastest bow out there.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Too many people worry about how fast a bow is instead of the shoot ability of they bow and their own capabilities.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I agree.

Edited by - BobCo19-65 on 09/16/2002 12:45:09

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

This topic will always lead to heavy verses light because those are determining factors with speed and yardage judging.There is no way to get around that fact.

What I would like to point out is if you choose to go with a fast bow is that when you go to buy arrows for it,the arrows that are in the right spine range for that bow are automatically heavier.This means that any advantage gained for trajectory has been diminished.The biggest gain will be in ke but the biggest disadvantage is the fast bow is a less forgiving bow by the way it is built.

I'm am not one that thinks speed is not accurate but if speed is shot from a bow that isn't forgiving it can be less than accurate in the wrong hands.

Stealthycat.You said that heavy retains more ke downrange.All things being equall that is a true statement but all things are rarely equall.A smaller diameter will retain more energy than a fat arrow.If a slow heavy arrow has 5" helical fletching and a fast arrow has 3" straight vanes then the lighter faster arrow is going to retain more of it's original ke.That is a fact.

I also agree that a 2 blader is going to penetrate better unless it is one of the thinner,lighter heads and it hits bone and the tip bends.If you havn't noticed already,I really hate general terms like faster is better or heavy is better.There are always many variables to a situation.

Bowfanatic,you said I should test 2 different bows and use a speed bow and a slower bow.I did this and came up with the exact same results as before.Now if you want to use a slow bow with a heavy arrow and a fast bow with a light arrow,then the difference might be a bit more but now we are comparing apples and oranges.

Here are the results of using fast bow with light arrows and a slow bow with heavy arrows.This is using the same draw length and poundage.

fast bow
359 gr @292fps
13 yards is 3.75 high and 30 yards is 3.75 low sighted in at 25 yards

slow bow
546 gr @ 231 fps
13 yards is 5" high and 30 yards is 5" low sighted in at 25 yards

There is an advantage when using just 1 pin but I think you would agree that it isn't as much as you would think.
When using multiple pins and gapping the advantages is almost non existant.

This all goes back to what Arthur is trying to get people to understand.There is no bandaid for misjudging yardage.If you are going to be the best hunter you can be and yes ethics comes into it,learn or atleast try to learn to judge yardage regardless of how fast you shoot.If you can't learn to judge then a rangefinder is a must or set markers around your stand.

I personally can judge yardage fairly well and would say that I am better than most and I will not go to my stand without a rangefinder.I don't like to use 1 pin but have seen some that were impressive using 1 pin.I prefer the gap method to holding high or low.Most can judge within 5 yards out to 30-35 yards.If you use the gap method you will have it covered to those distances.If you know a deer is between 22 and 28 and regardless of speed.If you put the 20 at the top of the kill and the 30 at the bottom of the kill.The deer is going to be supper.If under 20 then use your 20.I personally like to know exactly what the yardage is so I can center punch the lungs and walk over to my kill instead of tracking.Doesn't always turn out this way but does more often than not.Shots at 40 plus yards are not for the average shot and should be attempted by only those that are above average shooters and imo should have a slightly faster setup just for covering the distance faster.They should not be attempted,imo if you don't have the exact yardage to the animal by either marking the spot earlier or by a rangefinder.

I will dismount from my soap box now and read all the attacks to those that still don't want to believe that what they may think is a huge advantage may be a very slight if any advantage.It may actually be a disadvantage if you use it as an excuse to not have to judge yardage.

Good luck to all this season.:)

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

I'll start by saying it's pretty sad when anyone posts facts thru research and still has to worry about attacks by others who may think that they have to defend themselves because they choose what type of setup they choose!<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle> I consider this place an electronic campfire where we can discuss and debate anything to do with bowhunting. We should be able to do it without the insults. We all have our different setup beliefs and when somebody else posts something in contrary to our beliefs , we shouldn't take it personal.

TFOX

I've shot setups like you mentioned in your post and they were pretty close to your results. I have a buddy that uses the 1 pin setup and he's shooting 303 fps. Yes , he does have to hold 3" low at most shots (15yds and under) , but his problem is guessing yardage past 20 yds and that is where his speed benefit comes in. He knows at 30yds he will hit exactly 1" low , 20yds dead on. He's the one that doesn't have a problem guessing the close stuff and spray paints marks on trees at 30yds.
I hope I haven't come across as being a smart allick towards anyone. I see the point Arthur was trying to make , but I also knew how others were going to see it and with my first post , my intentions were to point that out to Arthur. I just think he could have worded it better!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

For the record<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> I shoot a 3pin setup with moderate speed and lots of wollop.

TFOX and Big Country

When you do your testing , try and zero in at different yardages and see the different results as to where you hit at 10yd - 30yds.
The reason I say this is , a couple years ago , I was shooting and sighting in at the farm where I hunt (this is when I was a speed freak) and I just walked off a distance that looked close to 20yds , but I never paced it. When all was done , I was shooting 1" high at 10yds and 1" low at 30yds at the range. I was shooting a 350gn arrow at 301fps. I'm not making this up and I'm not on drugs:) I think there must be a sweet spot when trying to sight in a fast one pin setup , try at differnt ranges and see if your zero is closer from 10 - 30 yds.
If not , I guess it could have been drug flashbacks from my youth<img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

Stealthycat, I could care less about Howard Hill or Fred Bear, I am an Ishi fan.If you have any questions on Ishi or paleo/archaic artifacts, feel free to ask. I will even quote you prices on the artifacts. How's that for being ignorant, missinformed and opinionated? Did I attack anyone personally in my last thread? No I merely commented I did not care for slow arrows. I threw in the "Quote this" because I think it is funny how much people use it on this forum and no matter what I said I knew it was coming. Slow arrows do have one great advantage if you are a good archer you can use the trajectory to shoot over brush. But for most people that is probably an unethical shot too! If people are so worried about personal choice in equipment maybe they should legislate new restrictions on hunting equipment. The ones in my state are kinda scary. 40#minimum at full draw. You can use a device to hold at partial or full draw. Projectile points cannot be poisoned, drugged or explosive. Broadheads must have two cutting surfaces and be at least 7/8 inch on impact, mechs are the same specs and must open on impact. Nothing about arrow weight, kinetic energy needed for mech's or ethics. I notice the one controlling factor no one ever mentions is animal movement. Say I have a rangefinder, I look at it and the deer is 30 yards. By the time I put my rangefinder down and draw, the animal has moved towards me. What then? Do I let off and look through the rangefinder again? Or do I take the shot if it is a high percentage shot? If I am guessing is that unethical?

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Say I have a rangefinder, I look at it and the deer is 30 yards. By the time I put my rangefinder down and draw, the animal has moved towards me. What then? Do I let off and look through the rangefinder again? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

No, first you move your single pin adjustable sight to the yardage you think he might stop, then you range find again. Then if it hasn't stopped moving, you'll have to stop him with a grunt. Then, be real careful using the rangefinder and re-adjusting the sight, because it's probably looking at you. Then, after it bolts, alerting every other animal within a mile, start cussing about how you should have bought that scent lok suit they only wanted $450 for. The art of hunting sure is fun.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>