RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

" I'll be honest you remind me of a guy who just quit smoking and wants to tell everyone what it's all about."

HA ! That could be true I suppose. Thing is, that guy who quit realizes the difficulty of it, while the 90% who don't quit never do.:) I missed a big CO bull elk two weeks ago. Why ? My arrow deflected on a branch right as the arrow crested its arch. With a flat shooting compound, I'd have another set of elk horns. Kudo's to all those who kill game with longbows/recurves. Its my opinion that the challenge of bowhunting added with the challenge of longbow/recurve equipment is truly a great challenge. With a compound, theres little equipment challenge - its all hunting challenge. Not dissing a compound shooter at all, I might very well shoot a Matthews next year myself.

CP - You sure typed a lot there defending yourself, and I don't think I ever mentioned your name, am I right ? So to all that, I aint going to itemize and respond.

" Another thing you know what he told me about paper tuning he doesn't do it very much if at all."

Paper tuning will tell you EVERYTHING your arrows are doing. Bare shaft tuning really shows you what your arrows are doing too. Your pro buddy I bet spends a lot of time on his equipment, doesn't he ? I can't imagine a competitive archer not. Always tweaking and trying to get a little more. Man, I bet I bought 25 different rests, 25 different sites and many different arrows and broadheads. Yeah, I know a bit about bow tuning, and I can tell you by all the guys I've shot with how poor their arrow flights would be through paper. No, I never shot tournament archery. Never desired it.

CP - You got a nice setup, you're happy with it, fine and dandy. Quite a few guys get new bows every year or two, try new carbons, a different rest etc etc, and that requires the bowhunter to retune his setups. Not tune a bow ? Stupid thought, irresponisble and anyone doing that doesn't deserve to hunt IMO. That'd be like topping a gun with a scope, bore sighting it, going straight into the woods and not going to the range - stupid and irresponsible.


gleninAZ " The thing about this soap box that really bothers me is the kids reading this stuff and getting scared to ever try to bowhunt. "

I don't really understand that. Compounds are easy to tune, they are easy to become good with. Most could practice for a few days with a well tuned bow (pro-shops are good about setting them up right) and to 20-25 yards there'd be little problems with acceptable accuracy. More practice = better accuracy of course. So archery is easier than its ever been to get into. Like Charlie P, get a setup that works, don't ever upgrade or change, use the same arrows and go deer killing. Shooting a compound can be learned in a few days, hunting takes much much longer and field experience is invaluable.

Stealthycat's Photo's

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Stealthy-I was talkin' about the ranging expertise and the ethics comments. Point is it is easy to learn to shoot if you want to and new guys will have enough shakin' on the first shot. At some point they will have to take it and I think the new technology will help them to get that first kill. No argument from me that all need to go out and hunt. My only problem is that I have waaay too much time to look at these forums waiting for october 12th.

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Hey arthur,I was asked by you to set an 80 yard pin and shoot my heavy arrow with my pin set for the light arrow in another post.I never set an 80 but I did shoot my 50 yard pin and the arrow shooting 20 fps slower was only hitting 6" low at 50 yards.At 30 I was only seeing a difference of about an 1 1/2".These are the exact same arrow with a weight tube and a heavier point.fast arrow is 268 fps and slow one is 243 fps.


The real point is that if the pins were set at 30 and 50 with the heavy arrow the arrow would have hit dead on.

Lets look at how much difference there would be between the light and heavy arrows with misjudged yardage.

If I sight in for the light arrow at 40 yards and step back 3 yards and shoot for 40 yards, the heavy arrow will shoot 1/2" lower than the fast arrow shot from 3 yards back.

Now this difference might be worth it on a 3-d range because it might mean the difference between a 10 or an 8 but on a live animal the difference isn't worth it.


There are some advantages to heavy and some advantages to speed and I like to get some where in the middle with my setup.A heavy arrow will be A LOT better in thick cover where you might encounter a a twig or leaf that you didn't see.A heavy arrow can hit these obstacles and can continue on to hit the target for a killing shot.I light arrow might continue on to hit the guts or miss completely.A light arrow will deflect much more than heavy and I choose heavy when shooting stands in thick cover.I don't worry with resighting because the difference is so slight and in thick cover I'm only going to get a 25 yard shot at the absolute max.

A light,fast,arrow can help with yardage in a slight way but for the most part is overated.I personally like the faster arrow for shooting field shots at 40 plus yards to ensure the arrow gets there just a little quicker.Just adds piece of mind to me.For me a faster arrow is usually less than 270 fps and a slow one is 230-240.


Heavy arrows can be used with a 1 pin set up also.You might need to zero in at 25 yards insted of 20 or 22.I have proved this to people that wanted to go lighter and there max yardage is 30 yards.I show them that if they were sighted in at 25 they will kill the animal from zero to 30 yards and they are usually convinced.


I charted this for a friend that has a long draw and he was very surprised.


637 gr arrow at 240 fps zeroed at 25 yards.13 yards is 4.5" high(this is the apex) and at 30 yards is 4.5" low.


Very same bow shooting 470 gr arrow at 271 fps zeroed at 25 yards.3.75" high at 13 yards(again,apex) and 3.75" low at 30.


I know this goes against the grain of what most believe but I have found it to be very accurate.

I think you will agree with this Arthur but others will find it hard to believe.I'm getting closer to agreeing with you all the time Arthur and becoming a heavy arrow advocate.
<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>


I have used heavy aluminum for years on tough man 3-d shoots.These shoots will have you shooting thru bushes and all kinds of obstacles.I have actually broken an arrow on a tree and the arrow continued in to the 10 ring.I won the shoot,as well as many others.

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

TFOX, you`re gonna get in trouble printing the truth about this!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
By todays standards, when we speak of fast hunting arrows and slow hunting arrows, we are not talking about a huge difference!
280-300fps=fast
230-250fps=slow

At ethical hunting ranges, this is NOT a huge difference, as you have just pointed out!

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

TFOX, you hit the nail on the head!! The fact is in a hunting situation, with my setup, misjudged yardage between 0-30yds does not change the fact that I will get a killing shot. Past 30yds, then you have to worry. I think that we have WAY to many 3D archers chiming in than we do hunters.

I know many of you guys do not think that a 3 inch variance in accuracy is acceptable. Personally, I don't understand why. Last time I checked, the kill zone of a deer is fairly large(larger than the 10 ring<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>)and where I center my sights on the deer, 3 inches would not make a difference.

Hunt the thickets

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Like Charlie P, get a setup that works, don't ever upgrade or change, use the same arrows and go deer killing. Shooting a compound can be learned in a few days, hunting takes much much longer and field experience is invaluable. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Actually I bought a new bow two seasons ago and switched the carbons I shoot and bought a new site.I was getting 226 FPS out of my old set-up, now I get 266.I've killed 5 deer with it and only had to track one,it went about 150 yards.

&quot;CP - You sure typed a lot there defending yourself, and I don't think I ever mentioned your name, am I right ? So to all that, I aint going to itemize and respond.&quot;

BTW, I wasn't defending myself,no reason to.I was using myself as an example.My bow is tuned, I just don't do it.Could you please respond to the questions I asked?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>its all hunting challenge <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

That's what I get off on! I love getting them close and slipping an arrow in em! I shot one of the ground at about 13 yards a few years ago and I thought I was going to loose it.

Arthur, I can see your point to a point, but I need a clarifacation.


<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Trying to rely on speed to bail your butt out of what you KNOW is a no-shoot situation is very, very poor ethics. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Is it poor ethics if I don't know for sure if the animal is at 22 or 25 yards but I know for sure because of my set up I can kill it cleanly?Does it matter if I hit two or three inches lower and still take out both lungs?

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Man you guys would be funny if I didn’t think you were serious. Because some one doesn’t hunt the way that you do they are unethical? Who cares what you do? I sure don’t.
I consider myself an experienced bow hunter and kill between 5 and 7 deer every bow season. I shoot one pin with an arrow speed of 276fps on a 450g arrow. I almost never shoot a deer outside of 15yds I have shot two deer in my life at 30yds. Your yardage comment is comical, I never think about yardage before a shot. When the deer gets under the tree I’m sitting in, I shoot him. I usually walk the yardage off when I get down to get my arrow.
You guys complaining about this issue are probably shooting slow bows that you bought several years ago and just don’t want to spend the money for a good one. I know a lot of bow hunters and none of them pull over 70 lbs but they all have fast bows, unless they fit into the other category. Technology has passed you by.
You probably couldn’t get $200.00 at a flea market for you whole setup including arrows!
If I wanted to shoot a slower arrow speed I would just shoot a heavier arrow. This is an option you do not have with you old outdated bow! But you already know this don’t you? All this being said, I could care less if you shoot a junk bow. The only reason you don’t shoot one pin is because you can’t.

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Stealthy

You said : &quot;Not tune a bow ? Stupid thought, irresponisble and anyone doing that doesn't deserve to hunt IMO. That'd be like topping a gun with a scope, bore sighting it, going straight into the woods and not going to the range - stupid and irresponsible.&quot;

If thats the case , then you and I , and probably everyone here , know people who harvest deer every year that dont deserve to hunt.
<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle>

TFOX

Thats good info , but not exactly for this thread IMO!
I think the people we're talking about here want to put the pin where they want it to hit , not compensate for 4 1/2&quot; low.
A better test scenario would be zeroing a bow shooting 250 and one shooting 290 plus.
For a one pin setup , I'll take the 290 plus!
Sure a one pin setup can work with a heavier slower arrow , but you have to compensate much more than you would at the fast speeds like I mentioned above. If a hunter is a lousy yardage estimator , he's not going to know where to hold the pin wether he needs to be 4 1/2&quot; low or 2&quot; high because he's not sure of the yardage.


Arthur

Other than a couple threads here and there , where are you getting all of this &quot;speed speed speed , light arrow , one pin , etc. etc. propaganda at? I dont see hunting mags pushing speed speed speed! I dont see the archery industry pushing speed! I see the archery industry offering bows that will suit the speed seekers along with the log shooters. I see the arrow mfg's offering arrows to suit each! Just about every month I see an article describing how too much speed can create poor broadhead flight or how some hunting mag writer prefers around 250 fps for deerhunting. I dont see posts by members here telling someone new that they need to shoot 300 fps. In fact I haven't seen posts here telling anyone they need to shoot light fast arrows for anything. Someone will usually post a question and others will answer and give advice or tell them what works for them. If you do a search on &quot;carbon -vs- alluminum or light -vs- heavy or fast -vs- slow&quot; posts , the common denominator in all of them will be Arthur P!
If anyone is pushing anything around here , it's you and your slow heavy arrows.
I'm not trying to engage in a flame war here , I'm just calling it like I see it.
BTW , theres nothing wrong with heavy or slow , to each his own!

Edited by - bowfanatic on 09/16/2002 00:25:50

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

I think this thread has taken several different roads since it began.
I feel that some people are talking about one thing, while others are talking about another.
Bowfanatic just posted he would like to see a specific test run.

I will shoot different arrow weights(significantly different) at different speeds on monday afternoon. I will test one pin set dead on @ 20yds., then hold spot on @ 30 and 40yds, and get an average of the drop at 30 and 40 when using a 20yd. pin.
Bowfanatic, if you have any specific thing in mind other than what you already mentioned, I will be on and off of this site until about 6:30am eastern time.


Hey Wayne B., I assume I am one of those guys you are talking about with the 200.00 bow that can`t afford a fast one, so I may need to borrow some of your top notch equipment!

One more thing Bowfanatic, can we agree that regardless of the bow, an arrow of a certain weight leaving at a certain speed will perform the same downrange. I believe this to be true, and I ask this so I don`t need to take more than a few rigs to the club to conduct this little experiment.

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

I guess I miss spoke. You know what you hunt with and the reasons you do. That is none of my business and that is my point. If you do not want one of the new bows that are capable of shooting one pin that if fine, you certainly don’t have to have one to kill a deer. By the same token you have no right to question someone ethics simply by how many pins they shoot. The most important thing to killing a deer is shot placement and nothing else. Any hunting broadhead shot off of almost any hunting bow will kill a deer if you hit it in the right place.
Arthur started this topic with one of the most ignorant things I have heard. All of my stands are 30ft high and at that height 30yds looks like a mile. I have killed deer at this distance but do not make a habit of it. Normally all my shots are chip shots and distance is the last ting I am worried about. I have killed a lot of deer with my bow and have missed a few. The ones I have missed have had nothing to do with distance; it wouldn’t have mattered if I had 20 pins.
My problem with Arthur is his arrogance to pass judgment on someone for such a stupid topic and the fact that someone who is starting out might read his post and believe that bull. The only people that are worried about distance or the ones that need to be and if a fast arrow will pass through a deer then it doesn’t matter anyway. I don’t shoot a light arrow but I know people that do and they have no problem with a pass through if they make a good shot. Nothing will make up for a bad shot. I agree with the guy who said let them get close.