At the risk of encurring the wrath of advocates of light, fast arrows...

I hear and read this stuff over and over and over again dealing with speed and misjudged yardage and I really hate it. It's the number one reason most people say they shoot the light arrows... Extra speed will make up for misjudged yardage. Every time I hear that, I cringe. I smell the pungent stench of poor hunting ethics. What the uninformed think they are basically saying is they can't judge yardage worth beans and they know it, so they HOPE the flatter trajectory will make up for their lack of skill.

Well, nobody's pefect. Mistakes are definitely made and the speed (along with a generous helping of pure dumb luck) MIGHT turn a bad situation around. But using that reasoning as THE primary reason for pushing the idea of shooting fast arrows is bad. Real bad.

Accidents are one thing, but it's gotten to the point that it sounds like nobody's talking about accidents any more. Speed to make up for misjudged yardage has been repeated so often on the forums, in advertising, at archery ranges and in pro shops, that it really has started to sound like bowhunters believe speed relieves them of the responsibility to make accurate yardage judgement. Nothing is further from the truth.

Not knowing what the yardage is, within a small window of error that would come as close as humanly possible to guaranteeing a clean kill, makes it a no-shoot situation. If you can't judge yardage close enough to be within that window, then you have two options. Get a good lazer rangefinder and use it OR, just don't shoot. Trying to rely on speed to bail your butt out of what you KNOW is a no-shoot situation is very, very poor ethics.

Please, speed advocates, when you talk about speed and misjudged yardage, PLEASE make it absolutely clear that you're talking about ACCIDENTAL misjudgments and that you're not telling people they can fling at any animal, regardless of whether the distance is known or not.

I've got a slightly different slant on this. I think that if one considers how critical the increase in speed becomes in terms of the shootability of the bow, I would bet that on balance, whatever is gained through speed to offset "accidental" misjudging of yardage is lost(and then some) in terms of accuracy. Now I'm not talking about a 3-D course, but in actual hunting circumstances. Just my opinion.

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At the risk of encurring the wrath of advocates of light, fast arrows...

I hear and read this stuff over and over and over again dealing with speed and misjudged yardage and I really hate it. It's the number one reason most people say they shoot the light arrows... Extra speed will make up for misjudged yardage. Every time I hear that, I cringe. I smell the pungent stench of poor hunting ethics. What the uninformed think they are basically saying is they can't judge yardage worth beans and they know it, so they HOPE the flatter trajectory will make up for their lack of skill.

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Arthur

This may be the first time I disagree with you<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

Most everyone here knows you shoot instinctively , so you are probably an ace at judging yardage<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> In a nutshell , what you just did is call those who want speed for a flatter trajectory to get away with one pin , because maybe they cant judge yardage as good as you , an unethical hunter<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

If a hunter sets his shooting limit at 30 yds while hunting , and has a bow shooting the speeds to compensate for his inability to judge yardage between 10 - 30 yards , but knows he will place his arrow inside the kill zone on anything 30 and under , it's unethical<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle>

Ordinarily the same hunter as described above , may not be good at judging yardage in between , but most know when something is beyond 30 yards or whatever they set their limit to be.
If someone knows that a deer is beyond that , and then tries to take a shot and compensate for it , then they could be called unethical.

I think if someone is horrible at judging yardage between 10 feet and 30 yards (dont know which pin to use) , gaining enough speed to make your bow a 1pin bow out to 30 yards is good , very good!

One of my best buds , happens to be a lousy judge of yardage , so that is the very reason he went to a light carbon arrow at 350gns. He now uses one pin out to 30 yards and spray paints a mark on trees at 30 yards in all directions so he knows whats off limits.
My buddy couldn't judge the yardage correctly between 15yds and 25yds , do you mean he should either buy a rangefinder or dont shoot?
What the heck did the poor yardage estimators do before rangefinders? Probably wound alot of deer! If they can solve their problem by shooting faster speeds , kudos to them!
I think it's very important for hunters to practice range estimation , but some people just plain suck at it.

I won't comment on the light vs heavy thing, but as far as judging yardage, I have a solution that will improve this for most people.

The human brain is a wonderful thing if it is given some repetition. People don't judge yardage well, because people don't practice judging yardage or don't practice judging it the right way. If you repeatedly take a target at an unknown distance, guess the yardage, shoot, then pace off the actual yardage, your estimating abilities will greatly improve.

I see lots of hunters practicing many hours with their shooting and tuning their bows to a fine degree. Some even shoot some 3D, which will help a little with yardage judgement, but they're concentrating primarily on score. Seldom do I see anyone concentrating just on yardage. Probably one of the best ways is to get out and do some stump shooting. Concentrate primarily on judging unknown distances and then pace off the actual distance so your brain can record both. Put 20 minutes in a couple times a week practicing this, and you will see vast improvement.

There is a lot of technology available to modern day bowhunters that makes it easier for us to take deer. I think this lends to the attitude that we don't have to practice as much, which may be true to some degree. However, if you want to be really good at this hunting thing, then intense practice will give you your best chance at success.

Well I hate to take a whiz on the myth of heavier arrows being better for hunting but here goes. As far as I can see there is one..count em one benefit of a heavy arrow. It will make your bow a little quieter. As for kinetic energy and penetrating ability it has been my expierience that the differances are minimal. A given bow is capable of generating a given amount of kinetic energy. Sure a 500 grain arrow moving 260 fps will generate a lot more KE than a 350 grain arrow moving 260 fps. The problem is that a single bow won't shoot both weights the same speed. As you add weight to the arrow you lose speed. A heavier arrow may increae KE a little but not a lot. That being the case why not opt for the arrow that has a flatter trajectory. With a 100 grain muzzy on the tip ,my bow will blow a 357 grain (total weight) carbon express through a whitetail and bury it in the ground. Why would I change? The arrow can only pass through them once. It is also a myth that a faster arrow is less accurate. Once again, the arrows may change but the bow remains the same. My bow will shoot a light arrow or a heavy one with the exact same degree of forgiveness. This misconception stems from the fact that bows designed to be &quot;Speed&quot; bows are less forgiving. They tend to have low brace heights and radical cams that are not very forgiving of poor shooting form. So long as its straight and properly spined, an arrows weight will make no difference in the shootability of a given bow.

Arthur,

Boy, you are just lookin' to stir up a hornet's nest with this one, aren't you? <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

I understand the reasoning behind your post and always follow the motto of &quot;better safe than sorry&quot; so we are on some common ground. But, I also agree with what Bowfanatic posted. Having a fast setup to compensate for minor misjudgements in yardage ( 5 yards for example) is, in my mind, more ethical than shooting a slower bow and knowing that you can't make the shot.

But, notice the terms I used...&quot;fast setup&quot; &quot;slow bow&quot;...not necessarily related to arrow weight. As we both know there are other factors such as draw weight, draw length, cam style, etc.. that all play a part.

Also, what one might consider a &quot;light&quot; arrow might be medium weight for another individual. For example, a 400 grain arrow might be &quot;light&quot; coming out of an 80 lb draw weight bow while that same arrow is in the mid-weight range for most of us that shoot between 60-70 lbs.

I would like to hear your further clarification on these issues.

Arthur P - Hell yes, I'll agree with you on this one.

Ya'll ever think back on how ridiculously easy rifle hunting is now ? I mean, 0 out to 250 yards and way beyond that, center the animal in the 3x12 scope and shoot. yeah, its a bit tougher than that, but you gewt the idea.

Compound hunting is a lot like that after hunting with a longbow/recurve. No idealist thoughts here, just plain thats the way it is truth. When I shot a compound, it was rare that I didn't know the distances within a few yards. Why ? I paced them off or sometimes had a rangfinder. I KNEW the distance, because misjudgin by even 5 yards creates some big changes in where the arrow can hit.

The cure ? Ultra fast arrows, 300 fps + setups. Flatter shooting, less errors, but theres two problems there. The main one is tuning the bow at that high a speed, often requiring mechanical heads ( NOT a solution to bad arrow flight) and the other is penetration/momentum. Yeah, hot shooting bows shoot flatter, but those light arrows lose a lot of momentum downrange, which is the area that most people are wanting to correct there misjudgements at.

Been there and done that guys. Speed isn't inherently bad, its what people use it to cover up thats the problem.
Stealthycat's Photo's

<font color=red>SA, again, deleted for skirting the profanity filter. </font id=red><font size=1> If your going to use profanity, at least let the filter take care of it. Again, not singling anyone out, this is what I do. </font id=size1>

Edited by - Rob/PA Bowyer on 09/15/2002 21:24:42

Silentassassin.... never mind. Ain't worth the effort to respond to that post.

Bowfanatic...
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>In a nutshell , what you just did is call those who want speed for a flatter trajectory to get away with one pin , because maybe they cant judge yardage as good as you , an unethical hunter <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

No sir. What I said was, &quot;Trying to rely on speed to bail your butt out of what you KNOW is a no-shoot situation is very, very poor ethics.&quot;

One pin to 30 yards... You've used speed to simplify your setup and improve your sight picture. Now THAT is a good reason to shoot speed. People can see the worth in that. When you put in that part about not being able to judge yardage, then you've basically said speed will relieve you of the responsibility to know the yardage to an animal. THAT is what I call unethical. Know the yardage or don't shoot.

By the way, I shoot my style because I don't have to judge yardage except to be able to tell whether the animal is within my 30 yard zone. Pretty much the same reason someone would shoot speed to get one pin to 30 yards.

Todd, this is not whether light or heavy arrows are better for hunting, it's questioning the heavy emphasis put on speed as a bandaid for misjudged yardage and the perception that goes with it.

Frank, unfortunately I did use that word 'light.' It's not about light arrows and it's really not even about speed. It's about what I consider upside down reasoning for shooting such an arrow and what outsiders think when they hear it said or see it in print. Poor yardage judgement is not a reason to shoot speed. It's a reason to buy a rangefinder.

Speed as an assist when something does go wrong with yardage judgement is a valid reason to shoot speed, but it should be at the bottom of the list, rather than the poster child. There are better reasons to shoot speed (I hope) and emphasis should shift to those instead.

I'm trying to get people to at least THINK about what they're saying and, since people don't like to think... Yep, I reckon I'm stirring up a hornets nest.

But I'm being as diplomatic about it as I can. <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited by - Arthur P on 09/13/2002 08:27:51

I agree with you Arthur.

I have shot both styles of setups, and still believe that judging yardage is important in any type of bowhunting. I take my little range finder (the focusing type good for 10-45 yards) in the woods with me everytime I hunt. I am pretty good at judging yardage, but I alway double check on it just to be sure. Even if you do practice judging yardage, where ever you practice, yardage in the wood can still be misleading. Here is an example. Last year I shot a deer at 27 yards. I waited for about an hour and didn't go over and check the arrow, but went back to the truck and waited for my buddy. We went back and checked the arrow and the point of impact and my buddy turned around and looked at my stand and the arrow in the dirt, and said &quot;man that was a 35 yard shot&quot;. Now I know he is great at distances, even better than me. But the problem was that I was hunting near, but not on the bottom, of a gully and the deer was on the opposite bank. But, I knew where he was when I shot, because I had the area pre-distanced out. Now if I would have shot at him like my buddy may have I'm pretty sure that the shot may not have hit vitals, no matter what the setup was.

My advice is this, the woods can be very deceiving, even if you have practiced at various distances and consider yourself good at judging distances. Don't take yardage for granted no matter what you shoot. This includes close in shots as well.

My other advice is this, don't over glorify how flat your fast shooting, flat trajectory, bows shoot. Just know how they shoot from extensive practice, and go with how the bow actually shoots and not how they are suppose to shoot. Because to be totally honest with you all, when I shot light carbons, extremely fast, I WAS NOT ALL THAT IMPRESSED with what I thought would be a flat trajectory from the setup.

Edited by - BobCo19-65 on 09/13/2002 08:44:09