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Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
At the risk of encurring the wrath of advocates of light, fast arrows...
I hear and read this stuff over and over and over again dealing with speed and misjudged yardage and I really hate it. It's the number one reason most people say they shoot the light arrows... Extra speed will make up for misjudged yardage. Every time I hear that, I cringe. I smell the pungent stench of poor hunting ethics. What the uninformed think they are basically saying is they can't judge yardage worth beans and they know it, so they HOPE the flatter trajectory will make up for their lack of skill. Well, nobody's pefect. Mistakes are definitely made and the speed (along with a generous helping of pure dumb luck) MIGHT turn a bad situation around. But using that reasoning as THE primary reason for pushing the idea of shooting fast arrows is bad. Real bad. Accidents are one thing, but it's gotten to the point that it sounds like nobody's talking about accidents any more. Speed to make up for misjudged yardage has been repeated so often on the forums, in advertising, at archery ranges and in pro shops, that it really has started to sound like bowhunters believe speed relieves them of the responsibility to make accurate yardage judgement. Nothing is further from the truth. Not knowing what the yardage is, within a small window of error that would come as close as humanly possible to guaranteeing a clean kill, makes it a no-shoot situation. If you can't judge yardage close enough to be within that window, then you have two options. Get a good lazer rangefinder and use it OR, just don't shoot. Trying to rely on speed to bail your butt out of what you KNOW is a no-shoot situation is very, very poor ethics. Please, speed advocates, when you talk about speed and misjudged yardage, PLEASE make it absolutely clear that you're talking about ACCIDENTAL misjudgments and that you're not telling people they can fling at any animal, regardless of whether the distance is known or not. |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
I've got a slightly different slant on this. I think that if one considers how critical the increase in speed becomes in terms of the shootability of the bow, I would bet that on balance, whatever is gained through speed to offset "accidental" misjudging of yardage is lost(and then some) in terms of accuracy. Now I'm not talking about a 3-D course, but in actual hunting circumstances. Just my opinion.
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RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
At the risk of encurring the wrath of advocates of light, fast arrows... I hear and read this stuff over and over and over again dealing with speed and misjudged yardage and I really hate it. It's the number one reason most people say they shoot the light arrows... Extra speed will make up for misjudged yardage. Every time I hear that, I cringe. I smell the pungent stench of poor hunting ethics. What the uninformed think they are basically saying is they can't judge yardage worth beans and they know it, so they HOPE the flatter trajectory will make up for their lack of skill. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> Arthur This may be the first time I disagree with you<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> Most everyone here knows you shoot instinctively , so you are probably an ace at judging yardage<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> In a nutshell , what you just did is call those who want speed for a flatter trajectory to get away with one pin , because maybe they cant judge yardage as good as you , an unethical hunter<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle> If a hunter sets his shooting limit at 30 yds while hunting , and has a bow shooting the speeds to compensate for his inability to judge yardage between 10 - 30 yards , but knows he will place his arrow inside the kill zone on anything 30 and under , it's unethical<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle> Ordinarily the same hunter as described above , may not be good at judging yardage in between , but most know when something is beyond 30 yards or whatever they set their limit to be. If someone knows that a deer is beyond that , and then tries to take a shot and compensate for it , then they could be called unethical. I think if someone is horrible at judging yardage between 10 feet and 30 yards (dont know which pin to use) , gaining enough speed to make your bow a 1pin bow out to 30 yards is good , very good! One of my best buds , happens to be a lousy judge of yardage , so that is the very reason he went to a light carbon arrow at 350gns. He now uses one pin out to 30 yards and spray paints a mark on trees at 30 yards in all directions so he knows whats off limits. My buddy couldn't judge the yardage correctly between 15yds and 25yds , do you mean he should either buy a rangefinder or dont shoot? What the heck did the poor yardage estimators do before rangefinders? Probably wound alot of deer! If they can solve their problem by shooting faster speeds , kudos to them! I think it's very important for hunters to practice range estimation , but some people just plain suck at it. |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
I won't comment on the light vs heavy thing, but as far as judging yardage, I have a solution that will improve this for most people.
The human brain is a wonderful thing if it is given some repetition. People don't judge yardage well, because people don't practice judging yardage or don't practice judging it the right way. If you repeatedly take a target at an unknown distance, guess the yardage, shoot, then pace off the actual yardage, your estimating abilities will greatly improve. I see lots of hunters practicing many hours with their shooting and tuning their bows to a fine degree. Some even shoot some 3D, which will help a little with yardage judgement, but they're concentrating primarily on score. Seldom do I see anyone concentrating just on yardage. Probably one of the best ways is to get out and do some stump shooting. Concentrate primarily on judging unknown distances and then pace off the actual distance so your brain can record both. Put 20 minutes in a couple times a week practicing this, and you will see vast improvement. There is a lot of technology available to modern day bowhunters that makes it easier for us to take deer. I think this lends to the attitude that we don't have to practice as much, which may be true to some degree. However, if you want to be really good at this hunting thing, then intense practice will give you your best chance at success. |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
Well I hate to take a whiz on the myth of heavier arrows being better for hunting but here goes. As far as I can see there is one..count em one benefit of a heavy arrow. It will make your bow a little quieter. As for kinetic energy and penetrating ability it has been my expierience that the differances are minimal. A given bow is capable of generating a given amount of kinetic energy. Sure a 500 grain arrow moving 260 fps will generate a lot more KE than a 350 grain arrow moving 260 fps. The problem is that a single bow won't shoot both weights the same speed. As you add weight to the arrow you lose speed. A heavier arrow may increae KE a little but not a lot. That being the case why not opt for the arrow that has a flatter trajectory. With a 100 grain muzzy on the tip ,my bow will blow a 357 grain (total weight) carbon express through a whitetail and bury it in the ground. Why would I change? The arrow can only pass through them once. It is also a myth that a faster arrow is less accurate. Once again, the arrows may change but the bow remains the same. My bow will shoot a light arrow or a heavy one with the exact same degree of forgiveness. This misconception stems from the fact that bows designed to be "Speed" bows are less forgiving. They tend to have low brace heights and radical cams that are not very forgiving of poor shooting form. So long as its straight and properly spined, an arrows weight will make no difference in the shootability of a given bow.
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RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
Arthur,
Boy, you are just lookin' to stir up a hornet's nest with this one, aren't you? <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> I understand the reasoning behind your post and always follow the motto of "better safe than sorry" so we are on some common ground. But, I also agree with what Bowfanatic posted. Having a fast setup to compensate for minor misjudgements in yardage ( 5 yards for example) is, in my mind, more ethical than shooting a slower bow and knowing that you can't make the shot. But, notice the terms I used..."fast setup" "slow bow"...not necessarily related to arrow weight. As we both know there are other factors such as draw weight, draw length, cam style, etc.. that all play a part. Also, what one might consider a "light" arrow might be medium weight for another individual. For example, a 400 grain arrow might be "light" coming out of an 80 lb draw weight bow while that same arrow is in the mid-weight range for most of us that shoot between 60-70 lbs. I would like to hear your further clarification on these issues. |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
Arthur P - Hell yes, I'll agree with you on this one.
Ya'll ever think back on how ridiculously easy rifle hunting is now ? I mean, 0 out to 250 yards and way beyond that, center the animal in the 3x12 scope and shoot. yeah, its a bit tougher than that, but you gewt the idea. Compound hunting is a lot like that after hunting with a longbow/recurve. No idealist thoughts here, just plain thats the way it is truth. When I shot a compound, it was rare that I didn't know the distances within a few yards. Why ? I paced them off or sometimes had a rangfinder. I KNEW the distance, because misjudgin by even 5 yards creates some big changes in where the arrow can hit. The cure ? Ultra fast arrows, 300 fps + setups. Flatter shooting, less errors, but theres two problems there. The main one is tuning the bow at that high a speed, often requiring mechanical heads ( NOT a solution to bad arrow flight) and the other is penetration/momentum. Yeah, hot shooting bows shoot flatter, but those light arrows lose a lot of momentum downrange, which is the area that most people are wanting to correct there misjudgements at. Been there and done that guys. Speed isn't inherently bad, its what people use it to cover up thats the problem. Stealthycat's Photo's |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
<font color=red>SA, again, deleted for skirting the profanity filter. </font id=red><font size=1> If your going to use profanity, at least let the filter take care of it. Again, not singling anyone out, this is what I do. </font id=size1>
Edited by - Rob/PA Bowyer on 09/15/2002 21:24:42 |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
Silentassassin.... never mind. Ain't worth the effort to respond to that post.
Bowfanatic... <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>In a nutshell , what you just did is call those who want speed for a flatter trajectory to get away with one pin , because maybe they cant judge yardage as good as you , an unethical hunter <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> No sir. What I said was, "Trying to rely on speed to bail your butt out of what you KNOW is a no-shoot situation is very, very poor ethics." One pin to 30 yards... You've used speed to simplify your setup and improve your sight picture. Now THAT is a good reason to shoot speed. People can see the worth in that. When you put in that part about not being able to judge yardage, then you've basically said speed will relieve you of the responsibility to know the yardage to an animal. THAT is what I call unethical. Know the yardage or don't shoot. By the way, I shoot my style because I don't have to judge yardage except to be able to tell whether the animal is within my 30 yard zone. Pretty much the same reason someone would shoot speed to get one pin to 30 yards. Todd, this is not whether light or heavy arrows are better for hunting, it's questioning the heavy emphasis put on speed as a bandaid for misjudged yardage and the perception that goes with it. Frank, unfortunately I did use that word 'light.' It's not about light arrows and it's really not even about speed. It's about what I consider upside down reasoning for shooting such an arrow and what outsiders think when they hear it said or see it in print. Poor yardage judgement is not a reason to shoot speed. It's a reason to buy a rangefinder. Speed as an assist when something does go wrong with yardage judgement is a valid reason to shoot speed, but it should be at the bottom of the list, rather than the poster child. There are better reasons to shoot speed (I hope) and emphasis should shift to those instead. I'm trying to get people to at least THINK about what they're saying and, since people don't like to think... Yep, I reckon I'm stirring up a hornets nest. But I'm being as diplomatic about it as I can. <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle> Edited by - Arthur P on 09/13/2002 08:27:51 |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
I agree with you Arthur.
I have shot both styles of setups, and still believe that judging yardage is important in any type of bowhunting. I take my little range finder (the focusing type good for 10-45 yards) in the woods with me everytime I hunt. I am pretty good at judging yardage, but I alway double check on it just to be sure. Even if you do practice judging yardage, where ever you practice, yardage in the wood can still be misleading. Here is an example. Last year I shot a deer at 27 yards. I waited for about an hour and didn't go over and check the arrow, but went back to the truck and waited for my buddy. We went back and checked the arrow and the point of impact and my buddy turned around and looked at my stand and the arrow in the dirt, and said "man that was a 35 yard shot". Now I know he is great at distances, even better than me. But the problem was that I was hunting near, but not on the bottom, of a gully and the deer was on the opposite bank. But, I knew where he was when I shot, because I had the area pre-distanced out. Now if I would have shot at him like my buddy may have I'm pretty sure that the shot may not have hit vitals, no matter what the setup was. My advice is this, the woods can be very deceiving, even if you have practiced at various distances and consider yourself good at judging distances. Don't take yardage for granted no matter what you shoot. This includes close in shots as well. My other advice is this, don't over glorify how flat your fast shooting, flat trajectory, bows shoot. Just know how they shoot from extensive practice, and go with how the bow actually shoots and not how they are suppose to shoot. Because to be totally honest with you all, when I shot light carbons, extremely fast, I WAS NOT ALL THAT IMPRESSED with what I thought would be a flat trajectory from the setup. Edited by - BobCo19-65 on 09/13/2002 08:44:09 |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
Judging distance has always been a little tougher for me because I can only see out of one eye (accident in grade school). Anyhow, I had to really work and practice at it while growing up. No one is going to get good at judging distance by stepping up to the 20 yard line and pounding arrows in a target all day long. I'm sure it comes more natural to some people, and tough for others. My arrow speed/trajectory is somewhere in the middle of the road I would guess. One thing I will do if I am in a stand with multiple trails and shooting lanes, is hang a couple small pieces of colored marking tape on the side of a tree about chest high on a deer, near where I expect to get the shot. That allows me to judge how far the deer is from my marking tape, rather than from the base of my tree.
--Man who fish in other man's well often catch crabs-- |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
Arthur,
I understand your point of view and do agree with you. But, I agree with you from possibly a different perspective. I think some bowhunters, especially those new to the sport, become far too fixated on speed and speed alone. Like it's some sort of macho thing or "too cool" to pull 80 lbs and shoot light carbon arrows at blinding FPS. <sarcastic voice>"Well, I'M pulling 80 lbs! I'M getting over 300 fps! MY arrow shoots like a lazer out to 60 yards! I only need one pin!"</sarcastic voice> I say woopty-friggen-doo to you and your high horse buddy. I bet your bow sounds like SHOTGUN going off. I'll also bet your bow is in the SHOP every year for repairs! I'm not pointing fingers at people on this forum, just trying to paint the image of that stereotypical slob we occasionally run into. You just know it when you hear these generally uninformed and boastful people talk. You almost always want to confront them, call them out, and let have an earful. Regardless of their excuse for speed, I almost always feel that "this guy" is probably not the best person to have out in the woods. It's these people that I think Arthur might be talking about. When you DO call these guys out, the first reason they come up with for all that speed is, "Well, I don't have to worry about mis-judging distance." Look, there's nothing wrong with speed and I'm not slamming people who strive to get their bow to perform well. There's a distinct difference between the guy who works hard and the guy who just spouts a bunch of BS. It cannot be denied that a good amount of speed aides in accuracy, energy, yadda-yadda. We should strive for the perfect balance of speed, quietness accuracy, etc. There IS however, something wrong with being obsessed with speed to a point where your running more arrows through a chrono than at a 3D target from various hunting positions. Spending more and more money trying it eek out 5 more FPS for the typical 20 yard shot is just plain ludicrous. -Mike |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
This discussion, while valid, seems to be a pretty easy one to fix.
Save your pennies and buy a range finder! If not taking ranges to an actual animal, range trees, rocks, ground, etc from your stand so when you see the deer standing in that area, you know the yardage. |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
I have only bowhunted for 5 years now so I don't even try to pretend I know everything. I do try to learn as much as possible. I have taken two deer with clean kills and I lost one deer that ran into the lake and sank only to wash up on shore a week later. It was a good shot but he ran fifty yards to the water on me. I feel terrible about that deer but I don't know how I could have prevented it besides making a heart shot. I have passed up MANY shots because I wasn't positive I could hit the kill zone. I am a terrible judge of distance, I couldn't tell you where I was inside of 30 yards or 300 yards. I practice alot and try to become better. I pick things all the time and then pace them off year round. I'm not unethical because I am bad at this. I choose a flatshooting light arrow because the heavy aluminums dropped so much that if I misjudged by 5 yards I would miss. My bow shoots to 25 yards with one pin. I am confident within that range so I mark 25 yards around my stand. I am doing everything possible to ensure a clean hit. Shooting a slow arrow that arcs through the air in my opinion is a bad idea unless you are extremely good with it. Even the pros misjudge now and then and that means a miss or a wounded deer. I would love to hunt with a traditional bow and I practice often with one but at the rate I am going It will be a long time before I am confident with it. I believe I am more Ethical because I practice and I shoot the best combination of equipment I can to ensure if I goof up by 5 yards the arrow still hits the kill zone. If I were using your combination I wouldn't be confident at all. I do admire you (and anyone else) who can shoot that well with traditional equipment, I hope to do that someday. Until then I want everything in my favor I can get.
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RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
I'm not sure anyone sets out to buy a "speed" bow that will shoot one pin out to 30yds just because they suck at judging yardage. I hope that most people in this forum can accurately judge yardage out to 30 yds within a yard or two, if not they should not be hunting. With most every set up, a yard or two will not make any difference in a hunting situation. What the speed bow does offer is the simplicity of one pin out to 30 yds. I don't own a speed bow, but I do see its benefits.
I think yardage estimation is blown out of proportion on this forum mainly because a lot a people in here know more about 3D shooting than they know about actual hunting situations. Yes, a 2 or 3 inch drop in arrow flight may cause you to miss the 12 ring but it has very little effect on placing an arrow through the vitals of a deer. I think we have way to many "shooting" experts in this forum. I think we need a little more input from the experienced hunters. Just my humble opinions. Hunt the thickets Edited by - Belle Island on 09/13/2002 10:28:14 |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
Another benefit of all the manufacturers filling the demand for speed, speed and more speed bows is, they let you fling a lincoln log pretty freaking fast too, if that's your gig :)
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RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> One pin to 30 yards... You've used speed to simplify your setup and improve your sight picture. Now THAT is a good reason to shoot speed.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
That's exactly what everyone else is saying only they haven't done as good a job of saying it. However, you have made the interpretation that you wanted to make. Which basicly makes you the same as an anti-hunter because you choose to portray most bowhunters as unethical slobs rather than ethical sportsman basically because they don't subscribe to your philosophy. That's a damn shame. Why don't you show up at a few PETA meetings and tell them all how any bowhunter that shoots light fast arrows doesn't even bother to practice because he is so unethical and lazy he doesn't have to bother judging yardage. Which is basically what you said and exactly why you are no better than your average PETA member in my eyes. <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I hear and read this stuff over and over and over again dealing with speed and misjudged yardage and I really hate it. It's the number one reason most people say they shoot the light arrows... Extra speed will make up for misjudged yardage. Every time I hear that, I cringe. I smell the pungent stench of poor hunting ethics <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> Humm, just because they like fast arrows for help with misjudging yardage they are unethical. You are no friend to hunting. You are just a person that likes to create controversy. Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal." |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
Well, I'm an experienced hunter and I agree with Arthur completely ... I think. I know my bow is shooting at 265 fps. I also have tested and shot and tested and shot starting from point blank all the way out to my max hunting range and beyond. I want something a little more precise than one pin from 0-30. According to the one pin theory I have shot my 20 yard pin and know the drop is NOT acceptable to me at 25 yards. I'll gap my 20-30. If I have a deer at 20 I want to aim where I expect to hit... the same at 25 and 30 etc. At 27 yards my 20 yard pin is in NO way acceptable to me. I'll gap the pins and shoot it like 25 and maybe aim a little up if I'm sure. At 35 I'll gap my 30 and 40. If I'm off a yard or two I'm still good. I was in Lens last night. There was a young guy there with one pin, bow shooting at 250 fps and he said he was good with one pin to 30. The arc of that arrow in NO WAY is acceptable from point blank to 30. He was sighting in on a 20 yard target for opening day. He says he'll guess and maybe aim a little high at 30. Guessing and "A little High" is not precise enough for me and I've been doing it 32 years. I don't shoot 3D but consider the accuracy required for it is what we should have too in bowhunting. You should put that 12 ring on the deer and try to hit it... not hit the 10 inch pie plate(which should really only be 8 inches) everyone talks about. When you start talking 35 yards... I want to know it's 35 or as close as possible. I don't want to say 35 and have it 38. I want to know it's a couple more than 35 at least. I try to achieve that accurate a range estimation if I do it with my eye or have time for my lazer rangefinder. You can NEVER be to precise and should NOT aspire to be CLOSE or in the ballpark.
Edited by - shortdraw on 09/13/2002 10:46:55 |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
Shortdraw, I'm in the same boat with you. My bow shoots around 260. I have to use more than one pin out to 30yds. I don't take shots past 30 because experience has taught me too much can go wrong at those distances. The point I was making was with these so called "speed" bows burning an arrow out at 300+ fps, there is no differce from 10 to 30 yds. It still hits within a couple of inches. I personally feel that variance is acceptable. A two or three inch variance is very minimal and I'm not sure most people could do any better than that with mutiple pins.
Hunt the thickets |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
Shortdraw, good honest post. <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>
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RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
Arthur,
I do agree with your reasoning and to further add something to the post..... ...maybe the correct terminology should be "speed at all costs." Going to a light arrow or going to a heavy draw weight or going to a short brace height, etc... All of these can lead to bad hunting scenarios. What I do like about today's inherently faster bows is the ability to slap a medium to heavy weight arrow on them and still get the same speed but more KE than a similar bow from ten years ago...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>. Maybe that is one big benefit from the whole "speed craze". |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
Frank, there's even a bigger benefit for us older guys. We can maintain the performance we're used to having while shooting substantially lighter draw weights. I've never been against higher performance equipment, per se.
What I've been against is the way it has been, and is being, used by people that are intent about buying success. Sit on their couch in front of the tube all year, pick up their bows a week before season, shoot a few arrows and.... TA DA!!... they're 'bowhunters.' Then they go park their butts in a booth in the coffee shop and talk about 'sticking a couple but couldn't find them' when they never got more than 20 yards from the truck and didn't see a thing. <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I have passed up MANY shots because I wasn't positive I could hit the kill zone. I am a terrible judge of distance, I couldn't tell you where I was inside of 30 yards or 300 yards. I practice alot and try to become better. I pick things all the time and then pace them off year round. I'm not unethical because I am bad at this. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> Of course you're not unethical, rml. I applaud you for knowing your limitations and working to improve your skills. I wish more people followed your example instead of trying to buy success. By the way, I hunted with a stickbow for many years (all there was, when I started) but am now hunting with a compound, instinctive. I've also competed in 3D with sights, releases and the whole schmeer... I know what it takes to shoot sights and that's a pain in the butt I don't need in the woods. MJL, blowhards, like the coffee shop gurus I spoke of, have been around ever since the first bow was made. You'll never get rid of them. But knowledgeble bowhunters shouldn't let 'em get away with spewing their BS when they catch them at it. How ya doin' Silentassassin?? You've already used the 'no friend to hunting' and PETA lines on me before when you didn't have anything intelligent to say. You need to expand your repertiore of insults. The ones you've got have lost their effectiveness through overuse. |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> How ya doin' Silentassassin?? You've already used the 'no friend to hunting' and PETA lines on me before when you didn't have anything intelligent to say. You need to expand your repertiore of insults. The ones you've got have lost their effectiveness through overuse.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> Amen. |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> How ya doin' Silentassassin?? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Just to be perfectly honest with you, I would be doing much better if we didn't have so many people like you in the sport. No one that I have ever heard here or in a Pro Shop says "Yea, go them light arrows and you don't even have to bother judging distance blah blah blah blah blah, and you know they don't. You are just twisting it around to make it sound like anyone that doesn't agree with you is unethical. I don't think 260 is fast enough to shoot 1 pin out to 30 yards but I am shooting 292 fps and I know that is fast enough to shoot 1 pin out to 30 by anyones standards. Arthur I may have used the PETA lines on you bfore but it's because it was warranted then and it is again. I suppose that is because you never have anything intelligent to say. Reminds me of a lonely old man with nothing better to do than stir up trouble. Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal." |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How ya doin' Silentassassin?? You've already used the 'no friend to hunting' and PETA lines on me before when you didn't have anything intelligent to say. You need to expand your repertiore of insults. The ones you've got have lost their effectiveness through overuse. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amen. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> Yea Yea Yea we know Bob Co, Arthur's your hero.<img src=icon_smile_clown.gif border=0 align=middle> Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal." |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
silentassassin - Do you agree that people for the most part use mechanical broadheads because fixed blade heads don't fly well in their untuned bows ?? I believe it to be true, I think many would agree to that, heck I've been there myself. Speed is a huge factor in peoples bows being untunable to fixed heads.
Stealthycat's Photo's |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
Wow guys...some pretty wild statements, and some VERY wild genralizations.
Belle Island "I hope that most people in this forum can accurately judge yardage out to 30 yds within a yard or two, if not they should not be hunting." After seeing quite a few 3-D shoots, I guess MOST 3-D shooters better not hunt! Some of the pros maybe...but not the rest of us. "The point I was making was with these so called "speed" bows burning an arrow out at 300+ fps, there is no differce from 10 to 30 yds." At 300 fps, your arrows would be roughly 1.5" high at 10, and 3" high at 20. There IS a differance...just not a VERY big one. (BTW 3" is TOO much for me). Silent assasin, Yes, many will go to a mech head because they have trouble tuning a fixed blade at those speeds. This is NOT always because they don't have a well tuned bow!!! MANY braodheads can make a LOT of turbulance in flight. the faster the arrow, the more turbulance. The mech heads don't have as large an area making turbulance (they still make it...just a LOT less). OTHER reasons SOME choose a mech head: BETTER penetration (confirmed in SEVERAL plausable tests) Better in a cross wind Bigger hole Hey guys, remember that 300 fps bow shooting 3" high? Well, one shooting around 240 will be off by around 5.5" If you mis-judge yardage by only 3 yards, you'll be off by about 2.4" if you judged it to be 30 and it was 27, Worse yet, you'll be off by 2.7" if you guessed 30 and it was 33! The 300 fps bow? guessing 30 yards he would be off by 1.3" if it was the 27 yard shot, and 1.6 on the 33 yard shot. No, Speed does NOT mean you don't have to judge yardage....it just makes your mistakes smaller. We are NOT un-ethical for noticing that a 20% drop in speed equals 40-45% increase in distance the arrow will be off target. Wanna call someone unethical for saying something like " I just got a speedbow shooting 300+fps, I'll shoot mech heads, and I won't have to tune it or ever judge yardage" Fine, I don't have a problem with it. FACT, Speed DOES make up for missed yardage.....as long as your somewhat close to start with. IF you can shoot a fast bow accurately,your yardage judging becomes LESS critical. NOT UN-critical, but still....LESS critical. |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
Dead on the money Stealthforce. Anyone who expects people to accurately judge yardage every time to within a yard or two past 15-20 yards is just silly. Maybe those critters out west sit around to be ranged, but an ole Eastern Whitetail ain't gonna let you fool around with a rangefinder. Very foolish statements in this thread, which was pretty foolish to begin with.
"In heaven, even the fish have antlers" |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
" BETTER penetration (confirmed in SEVERAL plausable tests)
Better in a cross wind Bigger hole" Bigger holes mean bigger cutting diameters, right ? That mean LESS penetration, not more. Also, how often have you hunted in a crosswind hard enough to blow your arrow off ? That would be like 30+ mpg and beyoned 30-40 yards ??? Stealthycat's Photo's |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
I've noticed a few negative statements regarding using one pin to 30 yards. I'm one who does this, but I don't hold dead-on at every yardage in between. I know that at point blank range, I need to hold a bit high, at 20 yards, I'll be holding a couple inches low, at 25 yards I'll be right on and at 30 yards, I'll be holding a few inches high.
If a target is out there in the 30 yard vicinity, I'm holding a few inches high. I don't need an extra pin to gap this. Same at 20 yards. Am I always within a yard or two on estimating distance? Nope, probably almost never. But I know if the deer is close or further out, how to compensate with one pin. I can hold 1" groups per 10 yard distance, which is definitely better than the average bowhunter. Do I need to know the exact yardage to kill a deer 99% of the time? No, at least not for the last 32 years of bowhunting I haven't. Is using one pin to 30 yards on a moderate speed bow, unethical? Not at all if you know how to shoot it. |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
I totally agree with stealthforce. This is exactly why I chose a faster combination. I can judge pretty well within 5 yards or less. Most of the time I'm better than that, but, in my short bowhunting career I learned that Murphy's Law was written about bowhunters. The one time I guess wrong will be when the real thing is in front of me. I can live with a lost or broken arrow in my backyard but I can't live with a wounded deer. I am nowhere near 300fps but I learned that a faster lighter arrow helps me when I am off a few yards. The heavy slow arrows did not do this. I need to clarify that I use three pins, 10-20-30 yards. I use one when hunting because I have never had to shoot over 20 yards. Part of what I love about bowhunting is getting close to deer. I shot my first deer at 10 yards. I stalked the second one on the ground and shot it at 18 yards. This one was a pure white 5 point buck that had escaped from a closed fenced in army base 10 from my home. I'm more proud of that deer than anything I've ever done.
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RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
6point,
Hey, you just called me silly. <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Anyone who expects people to accurately judge yardage every time to within a yard or two past 15-20 yards is just silly. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> That's OK I can take it. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> But really, even though I am pretty good at judging distances, I do take a rangefinder in the woods and know the distance of objects, whether they are bushes trees, etc. So I can actually say that most of the time, when a deer comes within shooting range, I can judge distance within 1-2 yards, no problem. And having that knowledge has helped me tremendously. You can call me silly for that, but thats OK. But, I will agree with you that the whitetails here in the NorthEast will not wait for you to range them. |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Anyone who expects people to accurately judge yardage every time to within a yard or two past 15-20 yards is just silly. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Then everyone that hunted with a bow when 200 fps was screaming fast was 'just silly' because that's exactly what had to happen. Consider this from the 3D world... There was so much griping and complaining from IBO's Mens Compound Release class that they had to move the class from the orange stakes to the closer green stakes. If speed does so much to minimize yardage estimate errors and makes hitting so much easier, why didn't the class start complaining about being TOO CLOSE instead of being too far? We shot those orange stakes from the time IBO first started, beginning at 'about 60 yards' which often wound up closer to 70, and bows were much slower then. Bows got faster and they changed the rule to 50 yards, max. Now bows are much faster and 50 yards max is too far? Now THAT is what's silly. Sounds like if we get much more speed, everyone's going to want to start shooting from the cub stakes.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
Hip Hip Hoo Rah for you Arthur<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>. I am so impressed that you can shoot at paper from 70 yards<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> But I don't shoot at deer on a 3D course under bright sunny skies in my shorts and T-shirt having all day to aim and shoot andh having the benefit of watching 3 other guys shoot at them. I shoot at them out of a deer stand in low light conditions with anly a moment to accurately judge the distance with my hunting gear on and I some times make mistakes. I don't make many any more but I have most certainly made my share of them.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Consider this from the 3D world... There was so much griping and complaining from IBO's Mens Compound Release class that they had to move the class from the orange stakes to the closer green stakes. If speed does so much to minimize yardage estimate errors and makes hitting so much easier, why didn't the class start complaining about being TOO CLOSE instead of being too far? We shot those orange stakes from the time IBO first started, beginning at 'about 60 yards' which often wound up closer to 70, and bows were much slower then. Bows got faster and they changed the rule to 50 yards, max. Now bows are much faster and 50 yards max is too far? Now THAT is what's silly. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> Please refer back to your statement about the monkey with the wooden leg kicking the seeds out of the watermelon, as I do not see what this has to do with hunting whitetails???????? Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal." |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
Straightarrow: Finally..., geez, I was begining to wonder if I was the only one that shoots this way. Truth is, I very seldom, if ever even pace off yardage. It really isn't that important to me, the way I hunt. I use one pin, always have, and shoot all summer at all different distances out to 25 yards, (give or take), and I know my comfort zone. A deer is either within my comfort range and I instinctively hold where I need to, or it is too far, and I watch it walk. I'm not saying this is the only way to do it, but it works for me. Thought maybe I was the only one.
( It would be more correct to say I practice out to longer ranges, but only shoot at live targets out to +/- 25 yards) Edited by - Slo-bo on 09/13/2002 14:54:27 |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
Silentassassin. The point is that you're shooting in low light, hunting conditions, out of a treestand, with a speedy arrow that even the 3D shooters seem to having a tough time with, even while shooting "...on a 3D course under bright sunny skies in my shorts and T-shirt having all day to aim and shoot..."
Like I said earlier, I do think the 'speed to make up for misjudged yardage' line does have some merit, but even the 3D shooters are finding that, at some point, the benefits of that speed are more than offset by how much harder the rig is to shoot with decent accuracy. Edited by - Arthur P on 09/13/2002 14:59:46 Edited by - Arthur P on 09/13/2002 15:41:09 |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
I would kindly ask that this discussion stay on civil terms. Personal insults and accusations do nothing but discredit a person's credibility.
Edited by - PABowhntr on 09/13/2002 15:32:07 |
RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
My apologies, Frank.You have no idea how hard I'm trying.
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RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
I do :)
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RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
If that was directed at me I apologize for calling you fellas silly.
I still think that it's difficult to judge within a yard or two past 25 yards, especially on the ground, in hunting situations. If you can God bless ya, you got one on me. Bob, I do the same thing with a rangefinder, but if you're hunting a new spot, that big old buck often doesn't wait until it's light enouh for you to range various objects at various distances from various directions. He often sneaks in when you can just make out your site, unfortunately, sometimes even before that. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Arthur, sure, you have to judge accurately with trad bow, but that's not what this topic's about. And I said past 20-25 yards in that part where you quoted me. When I shot a recurve, I didn't shoot past that, so no problems there. If he was past that, I didn't have to judge, I just sat there cussing myself for picking the wrong tree..again. Even a half blind fool like myself could judge close enough to hit a deer at 15 yards, and my bear recurve is even less than 200fps. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> "In heaven, even the fish have antlers" |
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