RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Bowshopper - " No I merely commented I did not care for slow arrows"

No, you said slow arrows suck, I think theres a difference there.

Thats great you're into the artifacts and such. I was privilaged enough to visit a private piece of land spanning the Rio Grande south of Albuquerque a few years back, both sides had large hills and were covered in pottery shards up to the size of the palm of your hand. Also, one of the hills on the east side had huge boulders that were covered in petroglyphs (sp?). I was VERY impressed, took lots of pictures etc etc. But anyway, you say slow bows suck but at the same time you also fully know how lethal they are - maybe I just read the words differently then. Much of what you said I fully agree with. You ever shot longbows/recurves much ??
Stealthycat's Photo's

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

OK, I am back with some limited info on the fast vs. slow debate. I did not have as much time to test as I would have liked, but it seems that every time I go to our archery club people start lining up with their bow problems!
Anyhow, here is what I have so far.

Test # 1,2, and 3 were all done with a Hoyt UltraTec, excel one cam, 65lb. draw weight, 325gr. arrow traveling 294fps.
@20yd.= dead on
@30yd.=3 1/4" low using 20yd. pin
@40yd.= 13 1/4" low using 20yd. pin

Test # 2
@ 30yd.= dead on
@ 35yd.= 4 3/4" low usung 30yd. pin

Test # 3
40yd. = dead on
45yd. = 5 3/8" low using 40yd. pin

Test # 4,5, and 6 were all done with a Mathews Q2 @ 67lb. draw, 417gr. arrow traveling 252fps.

Test # 4
@ 20yd. = dead on
@ 30yd. = 5 1/4" low using 20yd. pin

Test # 5
@ 30yd. = dead on
@ 35yd. = 5" low using 30yd. pin

Test # 6
@ 40yd. = dead on
@ 45yd. = 6 1/4" low using 40yd. pin

Test # 7,8, and 9 were all done with a Mathews MQ1 @ 63lb. draw, 483gr. arrow traveling @ 239fps.

Test # 7
@ 20yd. = dead on
@ 30yd. = 7' low using 20yd. pin

Test # 8
@ 30yd. = dead on
@ 35yd. = 6 3/8" low using 30yd. pin

Test # 9
@ 40yd. = dead on
@ 45yd. = 8 1/2" low using 40yd. pin

NOTE: All groups were shot in 3 shot volleys. Any suspect shots, were reshot.

The next test will be to find the optimum yardage to sight these bows in so that we can see how they perform best with one pin out to 30 yards.

Also, while there is an obvious difference in arrow drop between the fastest rig, and the slowest, I feel this shows that faster speeds can definately help you if a yardage error occurs, BUT NOT BY MUCH!

Take note of the 294fps bow, and the 252fps bow. These numbers even surprised me. Very little difference in drop. I even repeated this test twice to make sure.

If anyone has any specific test in mind, let me know. And remember, I shoot my hunting rigs at 280-285fps, so I am not chanting that SLOW is definately best, I just feel that for most hunting situations, fast is overrated!

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Bowshopper, I'm sure your last remarks are tounge in cheek. But what is estimating range? It's guessing how far away something is. Some people are good at it, some are not. I think the intent of this thread is to illustrate the fact that some people may use a fast bow as a crutch, to overcome poor range judging skills. Some may use it as a substitute, not giving a thought for distance. That's where I see the problem. See the deer, shoot the deer. It was over there, about that far.
I'm sure that after the deer at 30 yds moved towards you, you realized it was now under 30 yds.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Phil.

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

I have to comment on this rangefinder stuff.NO ONE says to range a deer when it comes in.This task should be done well before hand.It isn't like you don't have time while your setting there waiting.By the time I get out of a stand I can tell you what every tree in a 30 yard range is.If I'm on a field I can tell you what every clump of grass or piece of paper is from my stand out to 50 yards.They can actually help pass the time of day.Another thing they do is acclamate your senses to the surroundings and you can actually guess the yardages that you havn't even scanned with the rangefinder.


This is really silly to be having to add this but some obviously have a hard time understanding the concept.


Big Country,good test.Seems to be showing that there is going to be rise and fall with any setup regardless of speed.There will be a difference but even at 45 yards there is a small difference.Less than 1&quot; with the first 2 and there poundage plays a big role.The 3rd was using a heavier arrow and a lighter poundage.It was less than 3&quot; lower than the absolute fastest bow.Match the poundage of the last bow and the results get even closer.The reason I say that is because most of the people out there only have 1 bow and try to get speed with a lighter arrow and it really doesn't help trajectory that much when you do that.

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>



Big Country,good test.Seems to be showing that there is going to be rise and fall with any setup regardless of speed.There will be a difference but even at 45 yards there is a small difference.Less than 1&quot; with the first 2 and there poundage plays a big role.The 3rd was using a heavier arrow and a lighter poundage.It was less than 3&quot; lower than the absolute fastest bow.Match the poundage of the last bow and the results get even closer.The reason I say that is because most of the people out there only have 1 bow and try to get speed with a lighter arrow and it really doesn't help trajectory that much when you do that.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Yes, Big Country's tests do bring reality to light. Faster doesn't get you much and losing the weight of the arrow is the consequence.
Remember, it's Feet Per Second and rarely is an arrow in flight for a full second....but a fraction of that....a couple fps or even several fps is all but nullified.

<font color=blue>Good Luck and Good Shooting</font id=blue>

<font color=red>Rob</font id=red>

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Would the results of the test be the same if the bows are shot from an elevated position? Even if the arrow drop is minimal in difference wouldn't the extra milisecond of speed the faster arrow gives you be an advantage since animals can cover alot of distance in a milisecond? If you can see your arrow fly why would you think an animal would not see it? I've shot self bows since 1962. I've had plenty of deer jump arrows before impact and spin out of the way before impact. Why? Because they could see my arrow! Last year I watched one of my friends try to shoot a doe with an old Bear Hunter 41&quot; round wheeled dinosaur from 20 yards. That doe gave him three broadsides and dodged all three arrows. Is he a poor shot or judge in distance? Well he has 8 P&Y and two bobcats he took with the same bow so I don't think so. Am I talking with my tongue in cheek? you bet! I still have to wait two weeks before my bowseason starts! Hey I'll be the first in line when Bowtech comes out with a 400fps bow!

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Man, this thing is still going on??

&quot;Extra speed will make up for misjudged yardage.&quot;
Not necessarily. You have got to be reasonably close to the correct yardage for the speed and arrow weight to save your rear end. You can't look at your target, think it's thirty yards and make a succesful shot if it is really 40 yards. It's only common sense to realize you would have to be with in a yard or so on your guesstimation.
I chose &quot;light&quot; carbon arrows (415gr w/broadhead) because that is what I happened to use and they work well. I have no clue what speed my bow shoots. It's IBO rated at 298, but I know it's no where near that. I'd like to know what it shoots, just out of curiosity, but it's not like it would be a life changing revelation for me.

&quot;Once again a topic has been changed from the original to a heavy v light arrow.&quot;
Ausie-guy, isn't always the case around here, lol.

&quot;For those of you that they say have a single pin set at 20 or 25 yds and can hit dead on at 0 to 30 I say BULL&quot;
Hmmmm, 0 yards, dang you are a good stalker, lol. I think the closest I have ever been able to get was maybe 8-10 yards. Not a heck of a alot of difference in impact point vs. aiming point. Further out, there's going to be a difference, how much depends on various factors. I always hit within 2-3 inches of where I am aiming. Maybe I move the pin position in relation to the target without even realizing it, but thats the way mine seems to work. Heck, maybe I am better at guessing range than I thought. Of course, you gotta take my word for it, seeing as how none of you have seen me shoot. I take y'alls word on your prowess, sight unseen... Maybe I am to trusting.....

&quot;There was a thread not so long ago about a target at 3 yrds you guys go out at put your pin dead on and see what happens.&quot;
Geez, at 3 yards you can shoot the dang thing instinctivly, forget about a pin.

&quot;When I got my current bow I got it because of the way it felt in my hands the speed side of it was a bonus I dont look at IBO or AMO ratings when I buy a bow I go on the feel of it.&quot;
Same here. That and the price. Would I like to have one of those fast and expensive Matthews Legacys? Sure, know of anyone wanting to get rid of one for less than $300? LOL






Those who wish to appear wise among fools, among the wise seem foolish.
Marcus Fabius Quintilianus (35 AD - 100 AD)

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Bowshopper, I don't think your friend was missing that doe because she <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>could see my arrow <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> or his arrow. I wasn't there so I can't say for sure and there is no way to prove it, but I would bet that she was hearing his bow. When deer &quot;dodge arrows&quot; they don't see there is an arrow coming at them and use super powers to see and dodge it like in the movie The Matrix. They are hearing a sound and reacting to it. Their natural reaction is to drop into their springing position for escape and that is when the arrow soars over their back. Sound travels at over 1000 fps and the fastest bows (even that 400 fps) bow don't even come close. To say you want a fast bow to keep a deer from dodging is your choice. Me, I'll take the quiet bow any day.

I went and checked the KE of the arrows in Big Country's test and they were all within 3 ft.lb.s of each other and would be closer if you bumped up the draw weight of the slowest bow. I do find it interesting that the discrepancies between the different speeds and their trajectories are so little. I don't shoot a light arrow for speed, I shoot one because I only have a 28' draw length and prefer the strength of carbon for my set up. I am planning on getting some weight tubes and seeing what difference if any they would make on my current sights.

As far as speed selling me a bow, I gave up on that years ago because of my short draw length and the corresponding noise. Now if you could get a bow producing 400+ fps, that was whisper quiet, and still shot a 450 grain arrow, then I'd be interested. But then again, who wouldn't?
<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited by - huntingbry on 09/17/2002 10:34:32

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

On that note, the speed of sound travels much faster than todays bows. Until bows take the lead, an alert deer will always have the edge.

If you are shooting a loud bow, do what you can to make it as quiet as possible. Then, if you want to minimize the potential of a deer &quot;jumping the string&quot;, only take shots at relaxed deer.

If a deer is alert and looking around for what is making it nervous, it's muscles are tensed and it's prepared to easily bound away. If it's relaxed, jumping the string is rarely a problem.

RE: Arrow Speed, Misjudged Yardage & Ethics
 

Big Country, thanks for having enough skepticism to do that testing, and for taking the time to do it.

This entire thread is a spinoff of Rangeball's 'arrow weight revelation' thread on the tech forum. Some of you have said how sick you are of my 'fixation' on heavy arrows, so you know I've been trying to tell people for months that going for allout speed doesn't do as much good as legend tells. Someone mentioned new shooters being turned away by thinking they have to know the exact yardage. Well, naturally, I've got a different point of view on that.

Quite frankly, I've seen more people give up on bowhunting in total frustration because they tried to start out with the fastest rigs they could put together. A few of them have listened to me and moderated their setups, shooting slower arrows and are now doing quite well. Most have it in their head that if they can't shoot at least 270 fps, then they they don't have a chance to kill a deer. That is the worst thing about this speed business. Newcomers tend to believe what someone more experienced in bowhunting says, especially someone that works in an archery store (notice I said archery store instead of a pro shop), without digging around and experimenting themselves, or at least trying to get other viewpoints, to find out if it's true or not.

Speed is good. All through the history of archery, people have done everything possible to increase arrow speed. Problem is, speed comes with a price, in accuracy and control. Someone that is a highly skilled shooter can make use of a lot of speed. A novice shooter can not. Nor do they even need to. As Big Country's tests show, they can be successful hunters with moderate setups that are easily controlled and they can shoot accurately.

This thread has turned nasty in spots, and I would be lying if I said I didn't expect it. But at least some people have finally started thinking about what I've been saying all along.