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2 Blade Rage not deploying blades...

Old 10-21-2011, 06:21 AM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by GMMAT View Post
Of course not (re: ALL). But, I think most bowhunters at least shoot a BH-tipped arrow or two before they hit the woods. I'm betting they either fix (or, have someone fix) serious tuning issues with fixed heads (enough to achieve acceptable - to them - flight) before hitting the woods.

That same hunter.....shooting mechanicals.....would NEVER KNOW he was out of tune.

Yes. They'll fly "just like a FP".

That's an absolutely UNETHICAL marketing campaign (IMO). They're (mechanical head mfr's who employ this mktg) playing to the lazy masses.

I believe a VERY small percentage of the "I've tried the Rage heads and they failed with me" claims. I believe a large percentage of the "I tried the Rage heads and lost a deer" claims.

Would the outcome (losing a deer) have been any different if that same bowhunter had been using a fixed head? That would depend on whether he did anything about being out of tune or not. At least with the fixed head, he'd have known he wasn't tuned.....and would be less likely to blame it on his broadhead.
Lets start with the "flies like a FP". Fixed head manufactures say the same thing so I gues it blows your "it's a mechanicals unethical marketing campaign" out the window.

Most guys don't fix the tuning problem with fixed. They may shoot a Fixed BH or 2 but a lot of them say that's good and certainly don't get it fixed. Would you rather have a guy shooting that can hit his spot with a slightly out of tune bow with a mechanical or the guy that has that same slightly untuned bow shooting a fixed at a deer at 30 yards.

I will take the mechanical hitting the spot compared to the fixed flying off the mark everyday!

How many of those deer that were lost by a fixed head because of the small diameter and didn't hit the mark (because of the arrow flight due to the fixed head) would have been
found if they were using a 2" mechanical (Rage). It goes both ways!

By the way there champ, I don't like to be called lazy so you and everyone that says it, STOP using "only lazy people who can't tune a bow shoot mechanicals". I'm so sick of that just because people use mechanicals they must be lazy.

Last edited by annika3; 10-21-2011 at 06:27 AM.
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Old 10-21-2011, 06:40 AM
  #92  
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Would you rather have a guy shooting that can hit his spot with a slightly out of tune bow with a mechanical or the guy that has that same slightly untuned bow shooting a fixed at a deer at 30 yards.
Circular argument. I'd rather have neither.

At least with the fixed head, the archer knows he's out of tune and has CHOSEN to ignore it. You can't fix stupid.

The mech. head user is simply ignorant to the fact (he's out of tune). The heads do nothing to change this.

I'm not aware of fixed head manufacturers that purport "flies just like a FP" marketing schemes. Out of a properly tuned bow (even if they did), that wouldn't be a lie. Misleading? You bet. I blame shop owners as much as the mfr's. From their mouths and internet postings I see this claim on mech's the most.

Anyone who tells you their fixed heads fly just like their FP's should also tell you the steps he took to make that happen. I've never worked with a setup yet that didn't require some tuning.

One of the most important tools we can utilize to help us recover hit amimals is the arrow at the POI. I shot (+/-) 12 whitetails with the Rage head....out of a 66# Bowtech Allegiance @ 29"DL. Plenty of KE, right? I recall WAY less than 1/2 pass-thrus. Hard to discern an arrow if it's in the deer.

Switching to a fixed head.....and a recurve @ 50#'s, I got 5-5 pass-thrus in my 1st season using that tackle. Using a large, fixed head BH FORCED me to understand the importance of bow/arrow marriage (i.e. "tune").

Out of the correct setup....supplying sufficient KE, there isn't a more devastating wound channel produced....that's better than a mechanical. I've always said this.

My assertion is that the correct setup isn't being produced NEARLY enough.

If the Rage co. (and all other mech BH mfr's) would emphasize the importance of tuning.....AND give realistic lower limits of FPKE requirements, I think it would go a long ways towards lending credibility to their products.

But, that would negate a LOT of potential customers from utilizing their products. See the rub?
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Old 10-21-2011, 06:49 AM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by LittleChief View Post
He's spot on here, Todd. Shot out of a well tuned bow a fixed blade head will shoot just as good as the lowest profile mech, even out to your maximum range.

Exactly. Obvious for those that have played around long enough with bows and arrows.


Annika,
As far as credibility, I really dont look for anyones affirmation on the web. I only give advice and opinion where I have first hand experience. You dont have to accept it. Glad you love the Rage, hope you enjoy great success with it. I have seen far too many issues with it first hand to ever place one in my quiver. I honestly dont know any diehard bowhunters in my area that are still using them. Many have given them a chance. None were convinced. To each his own.
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Old 10-21-2011, 07:02 AM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by GMMAT View Post
Fair questions....


Poor penetration.
What about a Rage would cause poor penetration? Sounds to me these cases would be more related to a lighter arrow. Too often people look to speed and throw their kinetic energy out the window. I shoot Easton FMJ's and get pass-thrus every time.

[/QUOTE]I'm basing what I'm saying on +/-2yrs. using the head from a bow/arrow that gave every indication it was "in tune". I mean....my FP's and BH's (Rage) had the same POI. How would I (and, I consider myself the avg. bowhunter) know any differently? It wasn't until I started employing fixed heads that I was FORCED to learn the importance of bow/arrow marriage.[/QUOTE]

That was the line of logic that led YOU to tune your bow...that line of logic will not necesarily "force" someone else to tune their bow. I think I see where you are going: If an arrow is kicking you won't get the same penetration. I think you'd have to be kicking pretty bad to see a significant difference (assuming the same weight arrow/BH is used in the pentration test.)

[/QUOTE]Agreed. But, don't you see an exhorbitant amount of folks claiming Rage/Mech. BH "failure" that purport perfectly placed shots? How much of this do you buy? I'm not buying much of either (BH failure OR perfectly placed shots resulting in lost deer).
[/QUOTE]

I've yet to have one fail...I can only assume a mis-placed shot...think we're in agreement here.

Interesting topic.

Last edited by Outdoorcountry; 10-21-2011 at 07:03 AM. Reason: Quotes
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Old 10-21-2011, 07:34 AM
  #95  
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If an arrow is kicking you won't get the same penetration. I think you'd have to be kicking pretty bad to see a significant difference (assuming the same weight arrow/BH is used in the pentration test.)
Let's use my experiences as AN example.....

Producing less than 1/2 the FPKE out of my traditional setup - with a large, fixed blade BH....out of a properly tuned arrow (vs. the compound....utilizing mech's....and an out of tune setup that showed no signs of arrow wobble in flight....utilizing fletched arrows), my pass-thru percentage went from <50% to 100%.

If everyone who shot mechanicals would screw on a large, fixed-blade BH to the business end of their arrow....and tune, accordingly....THEN switch (assuming they were producing adequate KE) to the mechanical, we'd see FAR fewer "I lost him and these mechanical heads are junk" threads and a lot more hero photos.
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Old 10-21-2011, 08:38 AM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by GMMAT View Post
If everyone who shot mechanicals would screw on a large, fixed-blade BH to the business end of their arrow....and tune, accordingly....THEN switch (assuming they were producing adequate KE) to the mechanical, we'd see FAR fewer "I lost him and these mechanical heads are junk" threads and a lot more hero photos.
Amen, brother. I really don't see how anyone could possibly argue with that, but I'm sure we'll see someone do it.
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Old 10-21-2011, 08:46 AM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by annika3 View Post
You actually think a fixed head with pretruding blades that catches wind is going to fly better or even as good as a mechanical in windy conditions? or a poor release? or with your bow torqued?
On a 20 to 30 yard shot - absolutely. In fact, if your bow isn't tuned or you haven't checked your broadhead concentricity, your low-profile Rage will STILL steer your arrow off course much worse than my spin-tested 1 1/8" Slick Trick will out of my tuned bow.


Originally Posted by annika3:3864412
You just lost credibility.
No he didn't. He's right.
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Old 10-21-2011, 09:24 AM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by LittleChief
He's spot on here, Todd. Shot out of a well tuned bow a fixed blade head will shoot just as good as the lowest profile mech, even out to your maximum range.

He's spot on here, Todd. Shot out of a well tuned bow a fixed blade head will shoot just as good as the lowest profile mech, even out to your maximum range.

Exactly. Obvious for those that have played around long enough with bows and arrows.
I have shot bows for 26 of my 46 years of life. Field tips and closed mech heads that fly like them are more accurate than fixed blade broad-heads from the hands of a human being. Perfectly tuned bow being fired from a machine like a hooter shooter then you will see little to no difference. Humans aren't machines. Torque your bow just a weensy bit and it will throw a fixed head off the bullseye left or right by a considerable mark at 40 yards. With a field tip the same amount of torque will throw you off only 1/3 as much. Don't hold form and drop your bow arm a teensy bit at the release and you can shoot 6 inches low at 40 yards with a fixed blade head. Do the same with a field tip and you hit maybe 2 inches low.

Call that anything that you like but I call it a more accurate forgiving head. And if you two don't know that then it's not me that needs a little more experience with the old stick and string.

I guess perhaps if you never shoot past 30 yards or aren't capable of shooting accurately past 30 yards anyway then you may never have noticed the difference. Some people have however.
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Old 10-21-2011, 09:47 AM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by Todd1700 View Post
I have shot bows for 26 of my 46 years of life. Field tips and closed mech heads that fly like them are more accurate than fixed blade broad-heads from the hands of a human being. Perfectly tuned bow being fired from a machine like a hooter shooter then you will see little to no difference. Humans aren't machines. Torque your bow just a weensy bit and it will throw a fixed head off the bullseye left or right by a considerable mark at 40 yards. With a field tip the same amount of torque will throw you off only 1/3 as much. Don't hold form and drop your bow arm a teensy bit at the release and you can shoot 6 inches low at 40 yards with a fixed blade head. Do the same with a field tip and you hit maybe 2 inches low.

Call that anything that you like but I call it a more accurate forgiving head. And if you two don't know that then it's not me that needs a little more experience with the old stick and string.

I guess perhaps if you never shoot past 30 yards or aren't capable of shooting accurately past 30 yards anyway then you may never have noticed the difference. Some people have however.
Wow! Is all of that sarcasm directed at me? You're missing the mark a bit, aren't you? All I said was that GMMAT was right in that out of a tuned bow, fixed blades will shoot as well as a mechanical. I made no reference to anyones experience or lack thereof. Also, my reference to 20 to 30 yards was in response to the "windy conditions" topic. Of course a higher profile fixed blade head is going to catch more side wind, but at most hunter's hunting distances, the difference is negligible.

Of course mechanicals are more forgiving. I don't think anyone could successfully argue against that. In my opinion, the problem is that many hunters use the "more forgiving" aspect of them as a "band-aid" to treat the problems of an out of tune bow or piss-poor form. Mechs may help with the symptoms, but they don't cure the disease.

Originally Posted by Todd1700 View Post

I guess perhaps if you never shoot past 30 yards or aren't capable of shooting accurately past 30 yards anyway then you may never have noticed the difference. Some people have however.
This particular sarcasm is taken just as you intended it: as an insult, and it was totally unnecessary.

Last edited by LittleChief; 10-21-2011 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 10-21-2011, 10:34 AM
  #100  
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[quote=GMMAT;3864457]Let's use my experiences as AN example.....

Producing less than 1/2 the FPKE out of my traditional setup - with a large, fixed blade BH....out of a properly tuned arrow (vs. the compound....utilizing mech's....and an out of tune setup that showed no signs of arrow wobble in flight....utilizing fletched arrows), my pass-thru percentage went from <50% to 100%.

If everyone who shot mechanicals would screw on a large, fixed-blade BH to the business end of their arrow....and tune, accordingly....THEN switch (assuming they were producing adequate KE) to the mechanical, we'd see FAR fewer "I lost him and these mechanical heads are junk" threads and a lot more hero photos.[/quote]

I agree with this but is it the BH's fault or the guy behind the bow? I would say it's the guy behind the bow that doesn't tune his bow and shoots fixed or mechanicals.
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