Question for "mature buck" advocates
03-05-2008, 03:13 PM
#122
Fork Horn
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 177
RE: Question for "mature buck" advocates
I too will shoot a doe before what I feel isn't a mature buck for the area.There alot of factors that play into this,How much you can hunt,how many animals you have harvested,population of deer in the area etc.I like to hunt all season so I try to find a buck and figure him out.It's just a fact that the more mature usually they are harder to hunt so it's the challenge.That said at no time should a hunter feel ashamed because they harvest a buck of any size legally.I don't shoot button bucks but will not stop a first time hunter from doing so.Most areas that contain deer have a surplus of does and the more young bucks that get to mature increases the chances of you seeing one,it also usually makes for a more exciting rut.Hunt,have fun and stick together
03-05-2008, 03:18 PM
#123
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blossvale, New York
Posts: 21,199
RE: Question for "mature buck" advocates
ORIGINAL: GregH
I agree with everything you have said, trophy hunting is easier for some people than others. It depends on how important it is to you and what you are willing or not willing to do. Some people move to different states to accomplish their goal ( I don't have to do that ). There is always a consensus that you have to make and/or a comprimise. If you are forced to hunt in an area devoid of trophy bucks, you could strive to kill bucks that are the best in your area. These would be considered trophy bucks in my mind. Just one way of looking at it.
ORIGINAL: davidmil
But that's easier said than done if you want to spend some time in the woods. I'm not talking of taking off and traveling to another state. I'm talking about walking out the door in your home territory and go hunting. Land access is always a problem. Time is a problem. But most of all, deer populations are a problem along with mismanagement by DNR and legislatures. Place genetics and all that in the same pile and everyone is not fortunate to have a 150-175 inch deer around. It's a fact of life. I'm not willing to pay some guy in Illinois, Kansas, Iowa or whereever,$3,500 to hunt for a week so I can say, I'm a Trophy hunter. Everyone doesn't have access to land where big bucks roam. I have in the past in other states but not now so I adjust accordingly. I'm not worried about what I'll have to shoot 10 years from now. I'm 64 years old. How many years do I have left? It's easy to say hunt where they are.... but it's not that simple is it really for MOST people. Most people have families, time restraints, money restraints, and quite frankly other priorities they put first. They still should have a right to hunt and kill what they want within the laws without someone(especially QDM tools like Morris) telling them they're a lesser person if they kill a basketrack.
ORIGINAL: GregH
Nobody's telling you what to do.
IF you want to be a trophy hunter, Rule #1 - Hunt where they live.
ORIGINAL: davidmil
You know, it's real easy to pass on a bunch of bucks when you have a lot of deer. When you can go out and expect to see deer usually every hunt, it's not real hard to say I'll wait for something bigger. I spent the summer glassing every deer within a 3 mile radius of my house. I saw a big 8, and a 6 and a spike repeatedly during the summer and Sept. That was it. During deer season I saw 1 spike and he wasn't the one I watched all summer. Realize, the big 8 and 6 were always on land adjacent to the land I can hunt. The 8 was killed on that same land. For the entire bow season I saw I guess maybe 6 deer from a tree and 3 during the muzzleloader season. I know of one that was poached in my woods with a rifle. So, tell me I'm suppose to pass a basket rack 6 up here when he walks by at 20 yards. Last year I saw and 8 and a spike. I shot the 8 with the bow. There's lots of pressure from hunters, night hunter and plain old outlaws all year. It's pretty tough to be a trophy hunter in such places. In Maryland I passed on deer all the time with no regrets because it was easy and the population per mile was about 40 more deer. I'd typically see hundreds in the year. I'm looking for a new woods. The last time I was in Ohio I passed on 4 bucks one evening that would have been prizes here.
You know, it's real easy to pass on a bunch of bucks when you have a lot of deer. When you can go out and expect to see deer usually every hunt, it's not real hard to say I'll wait for something bigger. I spent the summer glassing every deer within a 3 mile radius of my house. I saw a big 8, and a 6 and a spike repeatedly during the summer and Sept. That was it. During deer season I saw 1 spike and he wasn't the one I watched all summer. Realize, the big 8 and 6 were always on land adjacent to the land I can hunt. The 8 was killed on that same land. For the entire bow season I saw I guess maybe 6 deer from a tree and 3 during the muzzleloader season. I know of one that was poached in my woods with a rifle. So, tell me I'm suppose to pass a basket rack 6 up here when he walks by at 20 yards. Last year I saw and 8 and a spike. I shot the 8 with the bow. There's lots of pressure from hunters, night hunter and plain old outlaws all year. It's pretty tough to be a trophy hunter in such places. In Maryland I passed on deer all the time with no regrets because it was easy and the population per mile was about 40 more deer. I'd typically see hundreds in the year. I'm looking for a new woods. The last time I was in Ohio I passed on 4 bucks one evening that would have been prizes here.
IF you want to be a trophy hunter, Rule #1 - Hunt where they live.
03-05-2008, 04:59 PM
#125
Site Buck Guru
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Racine, Wisconsin
Posts: 5,922
RE: Question for "mature buck" advocates
ORIGINAL: davidmil
Move to another state just so you can trophy hunt? Now that ladies and gentlemen is truly having no life outside of hunting. That group of people would be so small. I'd give up hunting tomorrow for the betterment of my family. No way would I make a life decision based on Trophy hunting. That really is a narrow, selfish way to run your life. That wouldn't be admirable... it would be pitiful.
Move to another state just so you can trophy hunt? Now that ladies and gentlemen is truly having no life outside of hunting. That group of people would be so small. I'd give up hunting tomorrow for the betterment of my family. No way would I make a life decision based on Trophy hunting. That really is a narrow, selfish way to run your life. That wouldn't be admirable... it would be pitiful.
.........truly having no life outside of hunting.
.......... a really narrow, selfish way to run your life.
.......... That wouldn't be admirable... it would be pitiful.
Who in the hell do you think you are to judge someone Else's life decisions!!??[:@]
Are you God? The person I'm thinking of is a member here, he's single and it's always been a dream of his. I say congrats for living your dream! I don't condemn them.
Sometimes your posts are enlightening and enjoyable, but this time nothing but self righteousness and ignorance has sprung from your finger tips and mind.
Get a grip. It doesn't affect you, it's none of your business!
Holy crap!![:@]
03-05-2008, 05:16 PM
#126
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Heaven is my home, temporarily residing in WNY :)
Posts: 6,679
RE: Question for "mature buck" advocates
ORIGINAL: buttonbuckmaster
ORIGINAL: James Vee
Those pictures posted of all of the dinks lined up in that roomlook like awall of shame.
Those pictures posted of all of the dinks lined up in that roomlook like awall of shame.
03-05-2008, 05:31 PM
#127
Typical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 702
RE: Question for "mature buck" advocates
This topic is one I feel VERY strongly about. I think people need to understand QDM versus Trophy management. While QDM might result in larger bucks, that is not the purpose. The purpose is to have a healthy deer herd. Is that a good enough reason why not to shoot immature bucks?
From www.qdma.com.
Antlerless Deer Management
In many areas, deer herds are at or above optimum densities and herd stabilization or reduction is needed. Both are accomplished through the harvest of female deer ‹ the reproductive segment of the herd. In fact, appropriate antlerless deer harvest often is the most important aspect of herd management. Traditionally, does were protected from harvest because of their reproductive role. Today, in many areas, an increased doe harvest improves the social structure and health of the herd without jeopardizing herd size or stability.
Many hunters are reluctant to harvest antlerless deer because they fear that buck fawns will also be harvested. While this is a valid concern, techniques are available to greatly minimize these mistakes. By paying close attention to body size and shape, head size and shape, and behavior, the harvest of button bucks can be minimized. Regardless, in the early stages of QDM it is more important to achieve the correct antlerless harvest for the area, even if a few button bucks are taken. A good starting point is to maintain an antlerless harvest with less than 10 percent button bucks, although a lower percentage is desirable.
Another concern is that harvesting does with fawns will result in the death of those fawns, especially buck fawns. However, research has shown that as long as fawns are at least 60 to 90 days old (weigh more than 40 pounds) their chances of survival are not negatively affected. Most states have established their antlerless deer seasons with this in mind. With buck fawns, most disperse from their birth area when they are between six and 24 months of age. Often, they will disperse several miles before finding a new home. This reinforces the need for hunters on small properties to encourage their neighbors also to protect buck fawns, as these may be your adult bucks of tomorrow.
From www.qdma.com.
Antlerless Deer Management
In many areas, deer herds are at or above optimum densities and herd stabilization or reduction is needed. Both are accomplished through the harvest of female deer ‹ the reproductive segment of the herd. In fact, appropriate antlerless deer harvest often is the most important aspect of herd management. Traditionally, does were protected from harvest because of their reproductive role. Today, in many areas, an increased doe harvest improves the social structure and health of the herd without jeopardizing herd size or stability.
Many hunters are reluctant to harvest antlerless deer because they fear that buck fawns will also be harvested. While this is a valid concern, techniques are available to greatly minimize these mistakes. By paying close attention to body size and shape, head size and shape, and behavior, the harvest of button bucks can be minimized. Regardless, in the early stages of QDM it is more important to achieve the correct antlerless harvest for the area, even if a few button bucks are taken. A good starting point is to maintain an antlerless harvest with less than 10 percent button bucks, although a lower percentage is desirable.
Another concern is that harvesting does with fawns will result in the death of those fawns, especially buck fawns. However, research has shown that as long as fawns are at least 60 to 90 days old (weigh more than 40 pounds) their chances of survival are not negatively affected. Most states have established their antlerless deer seasons with this in mind. With buck fawns, most disperse from their birth area when they are between six and 24 months of age. Often, they will disperse several miles before finding a new home. This reinforces the need for hunters on small properties to encourage their neighbors also to protect buck fawns, as these may be your adult bucks of tomorrow.
03-05-2008, 05:33 PM
#128
Typical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 702
RE: Question for "mature buck" advocates
Antlered Buck ManagementAnother important aspect of herd management is establishing appropriate harvest restrictions for bucks. Restrictions are established on a property-specific basis according to hunter objectives, property size, habitat quality, management practices on surrounding properties, and other factors. A reasonable starting point for most QDM programs is the protection of yearling bucks.
Several body and antler characteristics can be used to distinguish yearling bucks from older bucks. For simplicity, most properties use antler characteristics such as a minimum number of points. However, in many areas, the number of antler points is a poor predictor of age and should not be used as the only harvest restriction. Other antler characteristics, such as antler spread and antler length, are generally better predictors of age, but more difficult for the average hunter to judge. When possible, both antler and body characteristics should be used to maximize reliability.
The appropriate restriction or combination of restrictions that best protect yearling bucks is determined by examining previous years' harvest data on your property. The restriction selected should protect all or nearly all yearling bucks, especially the largest-antlered yearling bucks. If no previous data are available, contact your state wildlife agency. Usually, they can provide assistance in selecting the most appropriate initial restriction. After the first few years, the restriction can be fine-tuned through the harvest data collected on the property.
Often, QDM participants increase the harvest restriction over time to protect other age classes in addition to yearlings. Antler size of even mature bucks can vary greatly. Therefore, a mistake to avoid is the establishment of a minimum harvest restriction so high that many mature bucks never reach harvestable status. This can result in these small-antlered mature bucks breeding many does, which may negatively affect herd antler size over time. Some deer managers recommend culling these smaller-antlered mature bucks. However, this requires more experience in estimating deer age and antler size than most hunters have. Most deer managers agree that bucks should not be culled until they are least 3.5 or 4.5 years of age, if ever. Generally, this approach is reserved for very experienced hunters on properties practicing trophy deer management.
Several body and antler characteristics can be used to distinguish yearling bucks from older bucks. For simplicity, most properties use antler characteristics such as a minimum number of points. However, in many areas, the number of antler points is a poor predictor of age and should not be used as the only harvest restriction. Other antler characteristics, such as antler spread and antler length, are generally better predictors of age, but more difficult for the average hunter to judge. When possible, both antler and body characteristics should be used to maximize reliability.
The appropriate restriction or combination of restrictions that best protect yearling bucks is determined by examining previous years' harvest data on your property. The restriction selected should protect all or nearly all yearling bucks, especially the largest-antlered yearling bucks. If no previous data are available, contact your state wildlife agency. Usually, they can provide assistance in selecting the most appropriate initial restriction. After the first few years, the restriction can be fine-tuned through the harvest data collected on the property.
Often, QDM participants increase the harvest restriction over time to protect other age classes in addition to yearlings. Antler size of even mature bucks can vary greatly. Therefore, a mistake to avoid is the establishment of a minimum harvest restriction so high that many mature bucks never reach harvestable status. This can result in these small-antlered mature bucks breeding many does, which may negatively affect herd antler size over time. Some deer managers recommend culling these smaller-antlered mature bucks. However, this requires more experience in estimating deer age and antler size than most hunters have. Most deer managers agree that bucks should not be culled until they are least 3.5 or 4.5 years of age, if ever. Generally, this approach is reserved for very experienced hunters on properties practicing trophy deer management.
03-05-2008, 05:46 PM
#129
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 7,876
RE: Question for "mature buck" advocates
ORIGINAL: Schultzy
I can tell you this Nodog that not even close to every doe gets bred each fall. The buck/doe ratio is very out of wack through out most of the USA. Your analogy of not taking doe's is messed up, not magicmans way.
In reality the more bucks that are around the more doe's will get bred!! I seen more doe's this last fall without fawns then I've ever seen before. Thats not good!! Reason being, too many little bucks were shot in place of these doe's. If there was a low deer population, your analogy would then make a little more sense.
I can tell you this Nodog that not even close to every doe gets bred each fall. The buck/doe ratio is very out of wack through out most of the USA. Your analogy of not taking doe's is messed up, not magicmans way.
In reality the more bucks that are around the more doe's will get bred!! I seen more doe's this last fall without fawns then I've ever seen before. Thats not good!! Reason being, too many little bucks were shot in place of these doe's. If there was a low deer population, your analogy would then make a little more sense.
If Germ wants to post the numbers for Pa. again you can see the possible support for what I said. In 3 years the harvest number for that state dropped from 550,000 to 350,000. They started shooting the does and not the bucks.
Here in ohio we protected the doe's in my zone for years to get it where it is. Bucks were never protected except for the amount.
03-05-2008, 05:48 PM
#130
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blossvale, New York
Posts: 21,199
RE: Question for "mature buck" advocates
ORIGINAL: GregH
davidmil,
.........truly having no life outside of hunting.
.......... a really narrow, selfish way to run your life.
.......... That wouldn't be admirable... it would be pitiful.
Who in the hell do you think you are to judge someone Else's life decisions!!??[:@]
Are you God? The person I'm thinking of is a member here, he's single and it's always been a dream of his. I say congrats for living your dream! I don't condemn them.
Sometimes your posts are enlightening and enjoyable, but this time nothing but self righteousness and ignorance has sprung from your finger tips and mind.
Get a grip. It doesn't affect you, it's none of your business!
Holy crap!![:@]
ORIGINAL: davidmil
Move to another state just so you can trophy hunt? Now that ladies and gentlemen is truly having no life outside of hunting. That group of people would be so small. I'd give up hunting tomorrow for the betterment of my family. No way would I make a life decision based on Trophy hunting. That really is a narrow, selfish way to run your life. That wouldn't be admirable... it would be pitiful.
Move to another state just so you can trophy hunt? Now that ladies and gentlemen is truly having no life outside of hunting. That group of people would be so small. I'd give up hunting tomorrow for the betterment of my family. No way would I make a life decision based on Trophy hunting. That really is a narrow, selfish way to run your life. That wouldn't be admirable... it would be pitiful.
.........truly having no life outside of hunting.
.......... a really narrow, selfish way to run your life.
.......... That wouldn't be admirable... it would be pitiful.
Who in the hell do you think you are to judge someone Else's life decisions!!??[:@]
Are you God? The person I'm thinking of is a member here, he's single and it's always been a dream of his. I say congrats for living your dream! I don't condemn them.
Sometimes your posts are enlightening and enjoyable, but this time nothing but self righteousness and ignorance has sprung from your finger tips and mind.
Get a grip. It doesn't affect you, it's none of your business!
Holy crap!![:@]
Do I sound like your wife? LOL