Healthy herd myth
08-03-2007 | 08:06 PM
#101
Boone & Crockett
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 11,682
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From: Michigan/Ohio
RE: Healthy herd myth
ORIGINAL: atlasman
Bravo..............nice to see someone else who REALLY understands hunting in NY.
ORIGINAL: SteveBNy
Would not effect mine much since for the most part, I choose to wait for and OLDER buck (not always, but mostly) and fill the freezer with the 2 to6
doe tags we can get.The 3/side would actually increase the pressure on the aprox 50% of our 1 1/2 yo bucks that meet or exceed this standard. Counter productive and leads to hi grading - which cannot be argued as healthy.
Doe tags hear are given based on pop densities in the ind wmu's - some give few or none al the way to others where 2 are expected and you can get 2 additional signed over to you. This is with your big game (gun/reg season) license. Buy a bow/mz license and get an additional either sex and antler less.
The hunters who statewide mar would hurtare the gun only guys who don't get drawn for a doe tag. Severely limits what they can shoot - in a couple years of no opportunities, they will drop out and our numbers drop. Also affected are the reg season hunters who may only get out opening day and maybe Thanksgiving morning - severely restrict their chances of shooting a deer and we start to loose them as well. These 2 groups make up a significant % of our total numbers - numbers needed to protect our seasons. I don't want to lose even one of them because I want to restrict them only to the way I hunt.
Just my thoughts
Steve
If NY put a MARS say 3 on a side for bucks how would that effect your hunting?
doe tags we can get.The 3/side would actually increase the pressure on the aprox 50% of our 1 1/2 yo bucks that meet or exceed this standard. Counter productive and leads to hi grading - which cannot be argued as healthy.
Doe tags hear are given based on pop densities in the ind wmu's - some give few or none al the way to others where 2 are expected and you can get 2 additional signed over to you. This is with your big game (gun/reg season) license. Buy a bow/mz license and get an additional either sex and antler less.
The hunters who statewide mar would hurtare the gun only guys who don't get drawn for a doe tag. Severely limits what they can shoot - in a couple years of no opportunities, they will drop out and our numbers drop. Also affected are the reg season hunters who may only get out opening day and maybe Thanksgiving morning - severely restrict their chances of shooting a deer and we start to loose them as well. These 2 groups make up a significant % of our total numbers - numbers needed to protect our seasons. I don't want to lose even one of them because I want to restrict them only to the way I hunt.
Just my thoughts
Steve
Bravo..............nice to see someone else who REALLY understands hunting in NY.
Why do you think 60% hunting is in SLP these days? It got to tough for are hunters in th UP and NLP and they left. I do not doubt what he said at all.
How about OBR? What do you think would happen?
08-03-2007 | 08:07 PM
#102
Boone & Crockett
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 11,682
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From: Michigan/Ohio
RE: Healthy herd myth
ORIGINAL: Charlie P
Kip P. Adams
Wildlife Biologist &
Regional Director, QDMA
No bias there right?
Kip P. Adams
Wildlife Biologist &
Regional Director, QDMA
No bias there right?
Yes their is Bias
08-03-2007 | 08:10 PM
#103
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,668
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From: NY
RE: Healthy herd myth
ORIGINAL: rybohunter
Whew Atlas, I'm glad you finally got to me, I was feeling left out
Whew Atlas, I'm glad you finally got to me, I was feeling left out
Never happen bud
No one is telling you that, but that is all you hear. An individual deer can be fine and well fed, but the health of the overall herd could be in severe jeopardy due to overbrowsing and you end up with a crash like Germ has shown.
That's why I said later that we have the ability to restrict harvests and match up the populations with the habitat, so that our impacts can still leave a healthy more balanced herd.
The biologists, and the deer. Biologists research natural deer herds and then translate the numbers into bag limits etc.
Carefull going down that road. Someone jacklighting deer may argue thier expression of "free will".
08-03-2007 | 08:11 PM
#104
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,164
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From: Moravia NY USA
RE: Healthy herd myth
Respectfully - More popular in NY does mean it is popular or widely supported - just that the interest is higher then surrounding states - not necessarily high.
Steve
Steve
ORIGINAL: Germ
Here is email posted on our board in MI
Here is email posted on our board in MI
Ed Spin
Hope things are going well for you. Here's some information on QDM interest by the general hunting public in the Northeast. I cover from Delaware to Maine and Eastern Canada, and New York sportsmen and women have by far shown the most interest in QDM during the past year. Average attendance at educational seminars is higher in NY than any other state I work in (75-100 people/NY seminar vs 50-75 people/other state seminar). I chartered 4 Branches in NY since August 2004 and will charter 2 more within the next 6 weeks. The NY Dept. of Environmental Conservation (DEC) is proactive with regards to deer management. The DEC may have 1 or more counties with some type of antler restrictions for the upcoming deer season. An increasing number of NY hunters are seeing improvements to PA's deer herd and are asking for similar changes to NY's hunting framework. The QDMA has a solid group of Branches in NY and a good working relationship with the DEC.
Kip P. Adams
Wildlife Biologist &
Regional Director, QDMA
Hope things are going well for you. Here's some information on QDM interest by the general hunting public in the Northeast. I cover from Delaware to Maine and Eastern Canada, and New York sportsmen and women have by far shown the most interest in QDM during the past year. Average attendance at educational seminars is higher in NY than any other state I work in (75-100 people/NY seminar vs 50-75 people/other state seminar). I chartered 4 Branches in NY since August 2004 and will charter 2 more within the next 6 weeks. The NY Dept. of Environmental Conservation (DEC) is proactive with regards to deer management. The DEC may have 1 or more counties with some type of antler restrictions for the upcoming deer season. An increasing number of NY hunters are seeing improvements to PA's deer herd and are asking for similar changes to NY's hunting framework. The QDMA has a solid group of Branches in NY and a good working relationship with the DEC.
Kip P. Adams
Wildlife Biologist &
Regional Director, QDMA
08-03-2007 | 08:14 PM
#105
Boone & Crockett
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 19,137
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RE: Healthy herd myth
So you guy can see not everyone thinks the same in NY
I've hunted this state for 30 years seen it go from 5 guys on a "party permit" (doe permit) to being able to take up to what is it now 7 deer?
Plenty of really nice bucks get killed around here every year. Don't see a need to mandate AR's.
08-03-2007 | 08:15 PM
#106
Boone & Crockett
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 11,682
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From: Michigan/Ohio
RE: Healthy herd myth
ORIGINAL: atlasman
OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The QDM boys mantra coming back to bite them in the arse
Funny how the same crowd that is always telling us there are big mature bruisers out there..............we just can't find them (even though they have never seen the woods we have hunted for decades)...........are the same ones judging the "herd health" by what we kill every year.
Why isn't it possible that the herd is at peak health right now.............and all the old mature brutes doing all the mating are just so elusive that we never see them.
Makes sense from what QDM guys have been telling me for years now. Can't have it both ways...........one of those viewpoints is wrong.
ORIGINAL: Wheatley
Older mature deer become very wary and are very hard to pattern/find. So to alot of hunters it is probably easy to convince them that they don't have enough "healthy deer" when in some cases they just never see them.
Older mature deer become very wary and are very hard to pattern/find. So to alot of hunters it is probably easy to convince them that they don't have enough "healthy deer" when in some cases they just never see them.
OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The QDM boys mantra coming back to bite them in the arse
Funny how the same crowd that is always telling us there are big mature bruisers out there..............we just can't find them (even though they have never seen the woods we have hunted for decades)...........are the same ones judging the "herd health" by what we kill every year.
Why isn't it possible that the herd is at peak health right now.............and all the old mature brutes doing all the mating are just so elusive that we never see them.
Makes sense from what QDM guys have been telling me for years now. Can't have it both ways...........one of those viewpoints is wrong.
So I do not get your point, matter of fact your odds in NY are better than mine in MI
08-03-2007 | 08:20 PM
#107
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,668
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From: NY
RE: Healthy herd myth
ORIGINAL: Germ
Atlas take a look at KY tag system I really like it. You get two tags 1 buck 1 doe. You can choose to shoot them anyway you wish. Gun or bow.
Would KY tag system be ok with you for NY ? If not why? I will explain why I like and why I suggested to the DNR and MUCC board after your response.
Atlas take a look at KY tag system I really like it. You get two tags 1 buck 1 doe. You can choose to shoot them anyway you wish. Gun or bow.
Would KY tag system be ok with you for NY ? If not why? I will explain why I like and why I suggested to the DNR and MUCC board after your response.
That would be fine with me................in fact no doe tags for a year or two would be OK as well.
The VAST majority of NY hunters do not kill 2 bucks a year though so I don't know that it's needed.
08-03-2007 | 08:20 PM
#108
Boone & Crockett
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 11,682
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From: Michigan/Ohio
RE: Healthy herd myth
Steve and Charlie
I have read this and am sharing with you. That is it. I am having a pleasant conversation with Atlas. I hoping(because he is a smart guy) will stop whining on this board and go do something about what is happing in NY. If he is unhappy get in the fight.
He can argue with all day and it does not mean squat. I think MI and NY have similar issues, and they are going to have to be dealt with.
I have read this and am sharing with you. That is it. I am having a pleasant conversation with Atlas. I hoping(because he is a smart guy) will stop whining on this board and go do something about what is happing in NY. If he is unhappy get in the fight.
He can argue with all day and it does not mean squat. I think MI and NY have similar issues, and they are going to have to be dealt with.
08-03-2007 | 08:21 PM
#109
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,668
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From: NY
RE: Healthy herd myth
ORIGINAL: Windwalker7
Nature's way is to eliminate the weak and unhealthy and allow the biggest and strongest to live and pass on their genes. Its been that way for eons.
Is this what trophy hunting is doing?
I think they do the opposite.
Nature's way is to eliminate the weak and unhealthy and allow the biggest and strongest to live and pass on their genes. Its been that way for eons.
Is this what trophy hunting is doing?
I think they do the opposite.
BINGO!!!!!
08-03-2007 | 08:23 PM
#110
Boone & Crockett
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 19,137
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RE: Healthy herd myth
you know I got into the "trophy hunting" mantra for awhile and killed my best buck. Well then I started hunting with my son who was about 5 at the time and had more fun shooting doesand smaller bucks with him with me.Now I have a daughter that wants to go with me.Taking the kids changed my mind set and I enjoy it more then being a solitary trophy hunter. The size of the rack isn't the trophy for me it's the experience with my kids.
You know some of the guys I know that are big time into trophy hunting won't take their young kids because it might screw up their oppurtunity at a big racked deer. I just shake my head.
You know some of the guys I know that are big time into trophy hunting won't take their young kids because it might screw up their oppurtunity at a big racked deer. I just shake my head.