Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
12-23-2006, 08:08 AM
#101
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blossvale, New York
Posts: 21,199
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
Not that he needs my support as he can take care of himself, but.. I agree with just about 95 percent of every thing Arthur says. And yes, in bowhunting for 50 years(back when no one else did it) Arthur is probably one of the more knowledgeable guys you'll find on the subject. He may be opinionated(aren't we all a little bit) but he knows of what he speaks. When he began Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet, there were no TV celebs telling you how to do it, there were no treestands, compounds, replaceable blade broadheads or just about anything we take for granted today.No stabilizers, string loops, fancy rest and sights, or store bought strings. Arrows you made yourself from wood. He started with a stick and string with no guidance and became proficient. He's seen it all. Heck, he's been bowhunting twice as long as some of you have lived. Does he know EVERYTHING??? I'd say he knows everything he needs to to constantly kill deer. Do I think anyone on here will come up with something he needs to kill deer. Nope, he'll kill them anyway. New gadgets come and go, get replaced etc, but they're not necessary for Arthur to kill deer. His way of hunting is pretty much mapped out. I agree with a heavier arrow as do most physicist. Arthurs preference for hunting technique is a short range sport. It's pure to him, and people want to take shots at him. You say he knows everything.... he does for his method of hunting. Don't begrudge him that. You disagree fine, but don't hint he doesn't know how to hunt and isn't successful. Ya'll should be so pure and proficient.
12-23-2006, 09:51 AM
#103
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The OH-IO
Posts: 7,103
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
Bucky, I did not stutter. I did not say to keep all things equal. Here's what I said, "Everyone can choose a KE that will work for them by tweaking their arrow weight and speed."
Sometimes you have to read the whole post before you jump to rediculous conclusions. Thourough reading and comprehension will help you understand.
Tweaking speed: most bows have an adjustable weight range. If you want to keep your velocity up, but use a heavier arrow, you must increase the poundage of your bow. A few pounds may get you where you want to be. Hence the term "tweaking". I wouldn't suggest tweaking the draw length unless you are trying to obtain the proper fit. If you need a better explaination of this, let me know.
Once again...NOT apples to oranges, poor reading and comprehension leads to mass confusion.
Sometimes you have to read the whole post before you jump to rediculous conclusions. Thourough reading and comprehension will help you understand.
Tweaking speed: most bows have an adjustable weight range. If you want to keep your velocity up, but use a heavier arrow, you must increase the poundage of your bow. A few pounds may get you where you want to be. Hence the term "tweaking". I wouldn't suggest tweaking the draw length unless you are trying to obtain the proper fit. If you need a better explaination of this, let me know.
Once again...NOT apples to oranges, poor reading and comprehension leads to mass confusion.
For example "Johnny" has his bow set at 70 pounds shooting 275 feet per second with 67 ft lb KE. How in the hell is he going to "tweak" his bow to shoot that 500 grain arrow the same speed??????
Hello...... Does your comparison make sense now???? NO, it doesn't. There was no misreading or incomprehension...... I see through your BS comparison and pointed out it is a null point. It is unattainable.
Even if "Johnny" had his bow set at 60 pounds, shooting 400 grain arrows at275 feet per second with 67 ft lb KE and he cranked his bow all the way up to 70 pounds............ his bowSTILL wouldn't produce theenergy to push the said 500 grain arrow 275 feet per second. At 60 pounds he would be firing that 500 grain arrow around 240 feet per second. By cranking his draw weight all the way up to 70 poundshe would produce atbest 20 FPS out of his rig...... Leaving him WELL shot of the 275 feet per second you suggested in your post.
Once again your comparison is no good and tomuch of an exaggeration to even be taken half way seriously.
Now what was that I said....... Oh yes, Apples & Oranges.....
The bowling ball/ ping pong ball quote is mine. It was a gross exageration to show a point. If you keep the velocity the same for the 400 gr arrow and the 500 gr arrow, the difference is big.... not irrelevant. Both arrows @275 fps, 400 gr. = 67 ft-lbs KE and the 500 gr arrow =83 ft-lbs KE. For a difference of 16 ft-lbs KE. The momentum of the heavy arrow (bowling ball) will carry it through the target easier than the light arrow (ping pong ball). Even though I can't explain why, I believe that even with both arrows being the same KE, The heavier arrow will carry through the target easier than the lighter arrow. Due to other characteristics, momentum, stiffness to name a couple. BTW, 65 ft-lbs should blast through a deer, 70 would work even better etc. Everyone can choose a KE that will work for them by tweaking their arrow weight and speed. It is usually better to error on the heavy side. I learned from my mistake.... I've shot through the thin part of the shoulder blade with a slower, heavier arrow and not penetrated with a lighter faster one. With the chance of an off hit, the heavy one wins more than the light one.
12-23-2006, 09:55 AM
#104
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The OH-IO
Posts: 7,103
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
There are at times more than one way to skin a cat.
I am not against someone hunting at 5gpp or 10gpp...... I just can't stand when people are hard headed......
Hunt with what you like is all I am saying.... I just like how these "heavy arrow" guys misconstrue the facts to make their way the right way.
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12-23-2006, 10:36 AM
#105
Site Buck Guru
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Racine, Wisconsin
Posts: 5,922
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
ORIGINAL: buckeyebuckhntr
Inever said that you stuttered.... I said your comparison is no good and invalid. Everyone cannot just choose a KE "that works for them" and tweak their arrow weight and speed to attain it.
For example "Johnny" has his bow set at 70 pounds shooting 275 feet per second with 67 ft lb KE. How in the hell is he going to "tweak" his bow to shoot that 500 grain arrow the same speed??????
Hello...... Does your comparison make sense now???? NO, it doesn't. There was no misreading or incomprehension...... I see through your BS comparison and pointed out it is a null point. It is unattainable.
Even if "Johnny" had his bow set at 60 pounds, shooting 400 grain arrows at275 feet per second with 67 ft lb KE and he cranked his bow all the way up to 70 pounds............ his bowSTILL wouldn't produce theenergy to push the said 500 grain arrow 275 feet per second. At 60 pounds he would be firing that 500 grain arrow around 240 feet per second. By cranking his draw weight all the way up to 70 poundshe would produce atbest 20 FPS out of his rig...... Leaving him WELL shot of the 275 feet per second you suggested in your post.
Once again your comparison is no good and tomuch of an exaggeration to even be taken half way seriously.
Now what was that I said....... Oh yes, Apples & Oranges.....
Inever said that you stuttered.... I said your comparison is no good and invalid. Everyone cannot just choose a KE "that works for them" and tweak their arrow weight and speed to attain it.
For example "Johnny" has his bow set at 70 pounds shooting 275 feet per second with 67 ft lb KE. How in the hell is he going to "tweak" his bow to shoot that 500 grain arrow the same speed??????
Hello...... Does your comparison make sense now???? NO, it doesn't. There was no misreading or incomprehension...... I see through your BS comparison and pointed out it is a null point. It is unattainable.
Even if "Johnny" had his bow set at 60 pounds, shooting 400 grain arrows at275 feet per second with 67 ft lb KE and he cranked his bow all the way up to 70 pounds............ his bowSTILL wouldn't produce theenergy to push the said 500 grain arrow 275 feet per second. At 60 pounds he would be firing that 500 grain arrow around 240 feet per second. By cranking his draw weight all the way up to 70 poundshe would produce atbest 20 FPS out of his rig...... Leaving him WELL shot of the 275 feet per second you suggested in your post.
Once again your comparison is no good and tomuch of an exaggeration to even be taken half way seriously.
Now what was that I said....... Oh yes, Apples & Oranges.....
Some people have bows that go from 70-80 lbs, some 60-70 lbs. Obviously, if you are maxed out in poundage, you can't crank it up anymore. But you can go up in arrow weight and come to a good KE rating. The idea here is to come up with a compromise with all factors of your own personal equiptment and settle on a good solid KE rating for hunting situations. In your example with little Johnny, by him going to a 500 gr arrow and dropping to 260fps, he gets 75 ft-lbs of KE. Good for killing anything in North America. A 12% gain in KE with a 5.5% loss of speed. At shot ranges out to 30 yards for deer, the gain in Ke helps more than the loss of speed hurts. At 30 yards, with the heavier arrow, you lose .018 sec.from time of release until impact. Do you think that will make much difference? I'd take the KEs.
And yes..... People can choose a KE that will work for them within bounds of the equiptment that they are using. Of course a youth shooting 40 lbs. with a 23" draw length cannot obtain 80 ft-lbs of KE, but they can experiment with their equiptment and find a KE that will work best for them. I didn't think that I had to spell out every little detail for you, but now I know better. You do have a keen eye for pointing out the obvious, good job.
12-23-2006, 10:57 AM
#106
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Norman OK USA
Posts: 3,318
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
ORIGINAL: buckeyebuckhntr
Someone argue with this..... Shot from the SAME BOW, nothing hypothetical here. Real world numbers.......
350 Grains at 300FPS yields 69.87 ft lb KE
500 Grains at 254 FPS yields 71.55 ft lb KE
At 350 grains and 300 FPS your arrows trajectorydrops 22.92 inches from 20 to 50 yards and loses 4.15 ft lb of KE from 0 to 50 yards.
At 500 grains and 254 FPS your arrows trajectory drops 34.34 inches from 20 to 50 yards and loses 3 ft lb of KE from 0 to 50 yards.
SO, in essence you flatten your trajectory 11 1/2 inches while only sacrificing less than 2 ft lb of KE with the lighter faster arrow setup.
While I do not hunt at 350 grains, I am just proving a point here.
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Someone argue with this..... Shot from the SAME BOW, nothing hypothetical here. Real world numbers.......
350 Grains at 300FPS yields 69.87 ft lb KE
500 Grains at 254 FPS yields 71.55 ft lb KE
At 350 grains and 300 FPS your arrows trajectorydrops 22.92 inches from 20 to 50 yards and loses 4.15 ft lb of KE from 0 to 50 yards.
At 500 grains and 254 FPS your arrows trajectory drops 34.34 inches from 20 to 50 yards and loses 3 ft lb of KE from 0 to 50 yards.
SO, in essence you flatten your trajectory 11 1/2 inches while only sacrificing less than 2 ft lb of KE with the lighter faster arrow setup.
While I do not hunt at 350 grains, I am just proving a point here.
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But lets look at the "advantage" in reaction time the faster arrow provides... (and no these facts are not "misconstrued")
Fast arrow: 310fps / 5280 fpm = .0587 mi/sec x 3600s/hr = 211.36mph
Slow arrow: 280fps / 5280 fpm = .0530 mi/sec x 3600s/hr = 190.91mph
So at 20 yards it takes .19s for the fast arrow to reach the target.
It takes the "slow" arrow .21s to reach the target.... 2/100th's of a second hmmmm... That's as negligeable as the difference in KE.
So, shoot whatever you want, and nobody else cares.
12-23-2006, 11:10 AM
#107
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The OH-IO
Posts: 7,103
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
Dude, I never realized that you were that simple of mind. My bad. For some reason you and some others are hung up on the "speed" thing. I predict that most of the speed freaks will eventually learn the hard way, that speed is not as helpful as they think.
I am not caught up in speed. I hunted at less than 300 FPS last year will a bow rated at near 330 IBO..... Man do I push that speed envelope [&:]
In your example with little Johnny, by him going to a 500 gr arrow and dropping to 260fps, he gets 75 ft-lbs of KE. Good for killing anything in North America. A 12% gain in KE with a 5.5% loss of speed.
You didn't mention that by upping his draw weight from 60 to 70 poundsat the same time he increased his KE with his 400 grain arrow to 75 ft lb of KE ...... Isn't that ODD....... So actually he has a big fat 0 increase in KE and a 9% loss in speed. Whatever scenario you can construe the KE difference will be so small it isa nullpoint.
You seem to be the one here having a hard time understanding..... Guess they are right, you can't teach an old dog a new trick.......
Funny how soon as you are proven wrong you hit the defense mode by trying to talk down to others...... Maybe atlas was right about you????
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12-23-2006, 11:14 AM
#108
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The OH-IO
Posts: 7,103
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
don't think that anyone is arguing the trajectory factor that's pretty obvious to anyone.
3) From 10 to 40 yards the drop isn't that much and if someone can't tell the difference between 20 yards and 40 yards while hunting then......enuff said. I used 40 because that is my personal maximum self-appointed maximum range that I feel confident shooting at a deer. Actually I know guys that have more of a problem between 5-10 yards!
dwd... I am not telling anyone to shoot a light or heavy arrow. I am just presenting the facts that these guys are leaving out in their attempt to make their way the right way. I would present the facts if this thread was reversed as well.
I am just trying to help those who don't have a complete understanding of speed andke ALL the facts so they can make an educated decision on what they want to shoot.
12-23-2006, 11:46 AM
#110
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Norman OK USA
Posts: 3,318
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
ORIGINAL: buckeyebuckhntr
"argue" was a tounge in cheek term I used in regards to Cougar Mags post.... I didn't really think someone was going to argue it... I just wanted to show him there actually is quite a difference in trajectory between the two arrows.
dwd... I am not telling anyone to shoot a light or heavy arrow. I am just presenting the facts that these guys are leaving out in their attempt to make their way the right way. I would present the facts if this thread was reversed as well.
I am just trying to help those who don't have a complete understanding of speed andke ALL the facts so they can make an educated decision on what they want to shoot.
don't think that anyone is arguing the trajectory factor that's pretty obvious to anyone.
dwd... I am not telling anyone to shoot a light or heavy arrow. I am just presenting the facts that these guys are leaving out in their attempt to make their way the right way. I would present the facts if this thread was reversed as well.
I am just trying to help those who don't have a complete understanding of speed andke ALL the facts so they can make an educated decision on what they want to shoot.