Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
12-23-2006, 01:15 PM
#111
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: HENDERSON KY USA
Posts: 6,634
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
ORIGINAL: buckeyebuckhntr
Someone argue with this..... Shot from the SAME BOW, nothing hypothetical here. Real world numbers.......
350 Grains at 300FPS yields 69.87 ft lb KE
500 Grains at 254 FPS yields 71.55 ft lb KE
At 350 grains and 300 FPS your arrows trajectorydrops 22.92 inches from 20 to 50 yards and loses 4.15 ft lb of KE from 0 to 50 yards.
At 500 grains and 254 FPS your arrows trajectory drops 34.34 inches from 20 to 50 yards and loses 3 ft lb of KE from 0 to 50 yards.
SO, in essence you flatten your trajectory 11 1/2 inches while only sacrificing less than 2 ft lb of KE with the lighter faster arrow setup.
While I do not hunt at 350 grains, I am just proving a point here.
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Someone argue with this..... Shot from the SAME BOW, nothing hypothetical here. Real world numbers.......
350 Grains at 300FPS yields 69.87 ft lb KE
500 Grains at 254 FPS yields 71.55 ft lb KE
At 350 grains and 300 FPS your arrows trajectorydrops 22.92 inches from 20 to 50 yards and loses 4.15 ft lb of KE from 0 to 50 yards.
At 500 grains and 254 FPS your arrows trajectory drops 34.34 inches from 20 to 50 yards and loses 3 ft lb of KE from 0 to 50 yards.
SO, in essence you flatten your trajectory 11 1/2 inches while only sacrificing less than 2 ft lb of KE with the lighter faster arrow setup.
While I do not hunt at 350 grains, I am just proving a point here.
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I am not going to argue light verses heavy,been there and done that in the past and many here know I am not of coventional wisdom on the whole thing.
There is one major flaw in your trajectory numbers.If we both have a 40 yard pin,then the TOTAL drop is completely irrelevant.Now,the only difference that matters is the miss difference between the 2 arrows.
I checked with my Archers Advantage program and the miss difference is very minimal.
This is out of the same bow at same poundage.I chose the kill zone on a large Mckenzie buck.This represents what yardage you can shoot and still hit the kill zone.(of course,this is assuming a perfect shot)
527 gr arrow @ 261 fps.
40 yards 34.7- 44.1 yards
43 yards 38.3- 46.8 yards
421 gr arrow @ 286 fps
40 yards 33.7- 44.6 yards
43 yards 37.4- 47.4 yards
If you do the math there is very little miss difference between the two.
heavy arrow difference between 40 and 43 yards
shortside long side
38.3-34.7=3.6 yards 46.8-44.1= 2.7 yards
light arrow
short sidelong side
37.4-33.7= 3.7 yards 47.4-44.6= 2.8 yards
If you follow along closely,you only gain .1 yard on a 3 yard,yardage miss at the long side and short side of the miss difference.
At 40 yards,most will have apin set.Most will be within 5 yards of the yardageand most will have a rangefinder for that long of a shot. IMO To still make a good shot with either,the heavy or light arrow you still need to be within 3 yards of the actuall distance.This allows for shooter error along withyardage error.
Again,as you can see,the fast arrow gave you a whopping .1 gain on a 3 yard misjudgement.
Now I hope this isn't to confusing to follow but this is the way it is,these are facts and I personally have proven it to myself many times over.Everytinme I set up a sight tape or set pin gap with the program,it proves itself all over again.It is always right,unless I make an error.
Greg
1 more thing,some of us are little whimps and cranking another 5 or 3 pounds out of our bows isn't advisable.That part of tweaking will do more harm than good.
The most important part of any setup is that it fits the hunter,the 2nd thing is that it is tuned well.3rd is to have a broadhead that matches the other 2.The rest will take care of itself if those3 things are met.[8D]
12-23-2006, 01:21 PM
#112
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: HENDERSON KY USA
Posts: 6,634
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
ps
I chose the odd weights because these are real world arrows that actually fit the bow.
I chose an aluminum 2317 and an Axis 340 for comparison.,I used the same point weights and fletching for both.
This was out ov a Hoyt Vectrix 29"@70#'s
I chose the odd weights because these are real world arrows that actually fit the bow.
I chose an aluminum 2317 and an Axis 340 for comparison.,I used the same point weights and fletching for both.
This was out ov a Hoyt Vectrix 29"@70#'s
12-23-2006, 01:24 PM
#113
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 7,876
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
Any one who wants to test different shafts out can get some animal parts from a butcher and have at it. Or just keep the shoulders of a harvested animal and freeze it untill needed.
12-23-2006, 01:38 PM
#114
Site Buck Guru
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Racine, Wisconsin
Posts: 5,922
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
It is clear, buckeye, that you do not comprehend the physics of the heavy arrow vs the light arrow, when it comes to penetration.
Second of all ...... prove me wrong?..... what did I say that was wrong?
Sacrificing KE for speed is wrong. There is also something called real world experience that proves to be different from numbers on paper. This is the physics part. With all of the variables. I don't think that my experiences are different than what has been published. I've shot deer with light fast arrows, until I ran into a performance issue. I started using a heavier arrow, without changing poundage, and the issue went away. Especially, if you are shooting a lighter poundage bow, 60 lbs. or less, you are better off with the advantages of the heavier arrow. How's this, It's sort of like using a .243 or a 12 ga. slug at 50 yards. They both should work, but I'd take the 12 ga.
I kind of figured you were related to Atlas.
Second of all ...... prove me wrong?..... what did I say that was wrong?
Sacrificing KE for speed is wrong. There is also something called real world experience that proves to be different from numbers on paper. This is the physics part. With all of the variables. I don't think that my experiences are different than what has been published. I've shot deer with light fast arrows, until I ran into a performance issue. I started using a heavier arrow, without changing poundage, and the issue went away. Especially, if you are shooting a lighter poundage bow, 60 lbs. or less, you are better off with the advantages of the heavier arrow. How's this, It's sort of like using a .243 or a 12 ga. slug at 50 yards. They both should work, but I'd take the 12 ga.
I kind of figured you were related to Atlas.
12-23-2006, 02:03 PM
#115
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The OH-IO
Posts: 7,103
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
TFOX
I agree with what you posted as well.... Although not everyone hunts with pins out to 40 yards. 1 pin seems to be the rage anymore. This is when your scenario won't help the shooter.
I hunt with 3 pins myself. 25, 35 and a 45 although it (the 45)most likely will not be used.
No I understand the difference between a heavier and lighter arrows penetration abilities...... A heavier arrow will most always out penetrate a lighter arrow... What I am saying is out of todays bows, you don't need the heavier(500 grain +)arrow to put your arrow through a whitetail and have it buried in the dirt on the other side.... You are correct on most all counts, you just leave out relevant information to let people who don't understand to decide for them selves. I am just trying to show there is more than one legitimate way to do it.
You haven't been around long enough to know atlasmans and my history.... It is a little more rocky than yours... He wont even "speak" to me anymore..... [&:]
Anyways, Happy Holidays everyone....
I agree with what you posted as well.... Although not everyone hunts with pins out to 40 yards. 1 pin seems to be the rage anymore. This is when your scenario won't help the shooter.
I hunt with 3 pins myself. 25, 35 and a 45 although it (the 45)most likely will not be used.
It is clear, buckeye, that you do not comprehend the physics of the heavy arrow vs the light arrow, when it comes to penetration.
Second of all ...... prove me wrong?..... what did I say that was wrong?
Sacrificing KE for speed is wrong. There is also something called real world experience that proves to be different from numbers on paper. This is the physics part. With all of the variables. I don't think that my experiences are different than what has been published. I've shot deer with light fast arrows, until I ran into a performance issue. I started using a heavier arrow, without changing poundage, and the issue went away. Especially, if you are shooting a lighter poundage bow, 60 lbs. or less, you are better off with the advantages of the heavier arrow. How's this, It's sort of like using a .243 or a 12 ga. slug at 50 yards. They both should work, but I'd take the 12 ga.
Second of all ...... prove me wrong?..... what did I say that was wrong?
Sacrificing KE for speed is wrong. There is also something called real world experience that proves to be different from numbers on paper. This is the physics part. With all of the variables. I don't think that my experiences are different than what has been published. I've shot deer with light fast arrows, until I ran into a performance issue. I started using a heavier arrow, without changing poundage, and the issue went away. Especially, if you are shooting a lighter poundage bow, 60 lbs. or less, you are better off with the advantages of the heavier arrow. How's this, It's sort of like using a .243 or a 12 ga. slug at 50 yards. They both should work, but I'd take the 12 ga.
I kind of figured you were related to Atlas.
You haven't been around long enough to know atlasmans and my history.... It is a little more rocky than yours... He wont even "speak" to me anymore..... [&:]
Anyways, Happy Holidays everyone....
12-23-2006, 02:23 PM
#116
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: HENDERSON KY USA
Posts: 6,634
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
Most 1 pin shooters will not take a 40 yard shot,the ones that will are sighted in at 30 and will hold high at 40 so thefast verses light arrow speed trajectory is still the same.A moot point at best.
I personally don't care near as much about weight as I do arrow balance and the mass of the arrow.NO mass isn't weight.Thin walled aluminum arrows can be heavy but penetrate likesh!t.[
]
I have personally tested real heavy arrows with extremely low foc and the penetration sucked for me.Maybe because my ke level is relatively low.Same arrow with weight tubes removed and 11% foc worked awesome for me.I tried a Nitro stinger traditional light that has extra wrap up front so the mass was extreme on this arrow and the penetration was off the charts and I believe the weight was only 410 grains.Foc was also 18% due to the design of the arrow.
I much prefer an acc or carbon arrow but a thick wall aluminum will also do a good job. .015 or thicker imo.
Broadhead style will make muchmore difference than anything and no,fixed doesn't always penetrate better than mechanicals.[8D]
I shoot 380 grain ACC'S @ 58#'s and 28 1/2" draw and blow through deer with my expandables.1 1/8" cut and well tuned arrows make MORE difference than light verses heavy or any of the other crap.
I personally believe speed does help in penetration in certain scenarios as well as momentum.I also believe that ke helps also.
I have spoken with a ballistics EXPERT who also egrees with me.
I said I wasn't going to argue but I couldn't resist.[][8D]
I personally don't care near as much about weight as I do arrow balance and the mass of the arrow.NO mass isn't weight.Thin walled aluminum arrows can be heavy but penetrate likesh!t.[
]I have personally tested real heavy arrows with extremely low foc and the penetration sucked for me.Maybe because my ke level is relatively low.Same arrow with weight tubes removed and 11% foc worked awesome for me.I tried a Nitro stinger traditional light that has extra wrap up front so the mass was extreme on this arrow and the penetration was off the charts and I believe the weight was only 410 grains.Foc was also 18% due to the design of the arrow.
I much prefer an acc or carbon arrow but a thick wall aluminum will also do a good job. .015 or thicker imo.
Broadhead style will make muchmore difference than anything and no,fixed doesn't always penetrate better than mechanicals.[8D]
I shoot 380 grain ACC'S @ 58#'s and 28 1/2" draw and blow through deer with my expandables.1 1/8" cut and well tuned arrows make MORE difference than light verses heavy or any of the other crap.
I personally believe speed does help in penetration in certain scenarios as well as momentum.I also believe that ke helps also.
I have spoken with a ballistics EXPERT who also egrees with me.
I said I wasn't going to argue but I couldn't resist.[
][8D]
12-23-2006, 04:36 PM
#117
Spike
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 66
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
Holly crap these threads get big fast!
Couple of points... alot of the 'comparisons' here are done with extremes out of the scope of what most are considering. A 350gr arrow versus 800? He even said the heavier one was just to be silly - yet used that number to prove his point?!
And 50 yard performance? Ok, yeah there is a small differernce at 50 but why dont we compare the difference between 15 and 25 not 0 and 50.
I wont buy into anything based on what I have read here. I have shot heavy aluminums, now medium carbons, and will be trying super light weight carbons next year. I'll decide for myself thank ya!
And about that 'whith most bows today...' what if we dont buy new bows every year? Up till last year I hunted with an old PSE Thunderflight Express, with heavy aluminums, and 142gr Razorback 5-blades. Never got a pass throughand only lost 1 deer. My dad still is using his 20 year old Pearson Spoiler.
I agree that shot placement is #1, broadhead #2, and weight/composition of the arrow is least important.
Couple of points... alot of the 'comparisons' here are done with extremes out of the scope of what most are considering. A 350gr arrow versus 800? He even said the heavier one was just to be silly - yet used that number to prove his point?!
And 50 yard performance? Ok, yeah there is a small differernce at 50 but why dont we compare the difference between 15 and 25 not 0 and 50.
I wont buy into anything based on what I have read here. I have shot heavy aluminums, now medium carbons, and will be trying super light weight carbons next year. I'll decide for myself thank ya!
And about that 'whith most bows today...' what if we dont buy new bows every year? Up till last year I hunted with an old PSE Thunderflight Express, with heavy aluminums, and 142gr Razorback 5-blades. Never got a pass throughand only lost 1 deer. My dad still is using his 20 year old Pearson Spoiler.
I agree that shot placement is #1, broadhead #2, and weight/composition of the arrow is least important.
12-23-2006, 05:57 PM
#119
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location:
Posts: 13,082
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
So, if all these "gains" and "losses" are minimal, as it were, what's the big deal w/ shooting an arrow that weighs in at 370 as opposed to 425?? We all know it will produce enough KE to blow completely through.
I shoot one pin, and most certainly will take a 40 yard shot. Though I must admit, I have markers at every 10 yards from 20-70.......So I suppose in that aspect I shoot "multiple" pins.....
We are missing another aspect of this.....3D shooting. 1/2" in trajectory will make a huge difference as it pertains to score, and since I shoot target w/ my hunting rig, I'm going faster....and lighter with enough KE to do the job.
Most 1 pin shooters will not take a 40 yard shot,the ones that will are sighted in at 30 and will hold high at 40 so thefast verses light arrow speed trajectory is still the same.A moot point at best.
I shoot one pin, and most certainly will take a 40 yard shot. Though I must admit, I have markers at every 10 yards from 20-70.......So I suppose in that aspect I shoot "multiple" pins.....
We are missing another aspect of this.....3D shooting. 1/2" in trajectory will make a huge difference as it pertains to score, and since I shoot target w/ my hunting rig, I'm going faster....and lighter with enough KE to do the job.
12-23-2006, 06:33 PM
#120
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The OH-IO
Posts: 7,103
RE: Heavy arrow, more KE....light arrow, more speed..??
Well, I think it is time for me to retire from this thread....
I think we all said our parts and none of us are incorrect.Everyone mustrealize that our way isn't the only way. That is where this whole discussion went south.
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