little ones make big ones
11-29-2006 | 10:51 AM
#171
Boone & Crockett
Joined: Oct 1998
Posts: 18,322
Likes: 0
From: Hughesville, PA USA
RE: little ones make big ones
ORIGINAL: Arthur P
Yeah, I think I remember seeing that somewhere back there...[8D]
I'm done biting my tongue and holding back on this garbage. Here's my real opinion about this matter. There will be some strong opinions, sarcasm andunflattering comments - aimed at the group, not at any individual -in this post, so this is fair warning. You guys might want to get out the steel toed boots and get 'em laced up, 'cuz I'm fixin' to do some stompin'.
First, the obvious. Horn hunters want big racks. Their mantra: Let the little ones go so they can grow.
Why? Simple. Sothere willbe more deer with big racks. Why? More deer with bigracks in the woods, means it'll be EASIER to find deer with big racks. It has absolutely nothing to do with maintaining the natural age balance of the herd, but that's too bad. The demands of the trophy hunter's ego come before the demands of Nature.
Keep the buck/doe ratio 1:1. It has nothing to do with maintaining the buck to doe ratio as nature intended. It will be much EASIER to find those bucks when they can't stay in cover buthave to chase all over hell and back to find the one doe he's supposed to be with, or to fight it out with a whole bunch ofother bucks for breeding rights. Morefighting than he'd have to do in a herd with a natural balance, certainly.Not too good for the deer but that's too bad. The demands of the trophy hunter's ego againtakes precedence overthe demands of Nature.
Look, trophy hunters. As I said earlier in this mess, you've already gone easier with equipment. It's easier to shoot accurately with a compound and sights than it is with a barebow recurve. You hunt from treestands because it's easier than hunting at eye level with the animals. You plant food plots to draw deer and concentrate them where you want them, so they'll beeasier to find. You buy every piece of garbage on the store shelves that you think even MIGHT give you an edge and make hunting easier. It's already gottentoo easy to just shoot a deer, so now you have to shoot a BIG deer? Oh, the demands of the trophy hunter's ego!
Oooo!But wait! It's toodarn difficult to only shoot big deerbecause there aren't that many big ones. Gotta do what we did with equipment and make it easier. How? Ahhh! By artifically manipulating herd balances, not to mention the attitudes of other hunters. (Behind closed doors they ask one another.... Is it possible to talk thosedumb sapsinto not filling their tags for a few years and try to make our selfish motives look like it's for their own good?)
Big racks are nice, butWHY are they nice? It's because they are SPECIAL. They are out of the ordinary. Taking a deer with an exceptional rack is something not everyone has done, or will ever do.
By the same token, I remember when bowhunting was special and out of the ordinary. Something not everyone could do. Now with the compound device and mechanical accoutrements, everybody can do it and it's not so special any more. I haven't seen a picture of a bowhunter with a deer on the front page of the newspaper in nearly 40 years. It used to be big news when a deer fell to an arrow. Now, taking a deer with bow and arrow has gotten so easy andmundane that nobody even notices any more.
How much easier do you guys want it? Artificial food sources, artificially manipulated herd ratios, artificial bows.... Each and everyaspect geared specifically to making it easier to kill a deer with an arrow.
So, horn hunters,what happens when you get your way and it's easy to shoot a big racked buck? When big racks are so common that they no longer special? What happens to your exceptional egos when your trophiesbecome ordinary? Answer that.You gonna start preaching to everyone that they should pass on those10 point dinks and let 'em grow to be 12's? 14's? How big are you going to have to go before racks get special again?
What a CROCK!
The way I see this QDM, TQM, stuff, it's not done for the sake of the herd at all. Someone else back yonder a ways in the thread said it's all about the horns. That's not quite the whole story. It's all for the sake of the guys who want to shoot big racks but aren't willing totrust to theluck of the drawand take what nature provides. It's for the guys who want it to be easy enough that they don't have to spend as much time in the woods as it'd take to get an HONEST trophy. It's all about artificially enhancing their chances at a trophy.
And they want to put themselves forward asthe new breedof elite hunters and make everyone else feel badfor not passing up deer that don't meet some mytical standard?Phhhhbbbbttttt![:'(]
Please, spare me the smoke and mirrors. I know you QDM typesdon't want any of this discussed but, since I've watched this wholeconcept develop over the past 20 years, I know the truth of the matter.
Remember, I gave you fair warning.
Some where in here or another one it is suggested. Shoot the little ones so the bigs breed....
I'm done biting my tongue and holding back on this garbage. Here's my real opinion about this matter. There will be some strong opinions, sarcasm andunflattering comments - aimed at the group, not at any individual -in this post, so this is fair warning. You guys might want to get out the steel toed boots and get 'em laced up, 'cuz I'm fixin' to do some stompin'.
First, the obvious. Horn hunters want big racks. Their mantra: Let the little ones go so they can grow.
Why? Simple. Sothere willbe more deer with big racks. Why? More deer with bigracks in the woods, means it'll be EASIER to find deer with big racks. It has absolutely nothing to do with maintaining the natural age balance of the herd, but that's too bad. The demands of the trophy hunter's ego come before the demands of Nature.
Keep the buck/doe ratio 1:1. It has nothing to do with maintaining the buck to doe ratio as nature intended. It will be much EASIER to find those bucks when they can't stay in cover buthave to chase all over hell and back to find the one doe he's supposed to be with, or to fight it out with a whole bunch ofother bucks for breeding rights. Morefighting than he'd have to do in a herd with a natural balance, certainly.Not too good for the deer but that's too bad. The demands of the trophy hunter's ego againtakes precedence overthe demands of Nature.
Look, trophy hunters. As I said earlier in this mess, you've already gone easier with equipment. It's easier to shoot accurately with a compound and sights than it is with a barebow recurve. You hunt from treestands because it's easier than hunting at eye level with the animals. You plant food plots to draw deer and concentrate them where you want them, so they'll beeasier to find. You buy every piece of garbage on the store shelves that you think even MIGHT give you an edge and make hunting easier. It's already gottentoo easy to just shoot a deer, so now you have to shoot a BIG deer? Oh, the demands of the trophy hunter's ego!
Oooo!But wait! It's toodarn difficult to only shoot big deerbecause there aren't that many big ones. Gotta do what we did with equipment and make it easier. How? Ahhh! By artifically manipulating herd balances, not to mention the attitudes of other hunters. (Behind closed doors they ask one another.... Is it possible to talk thosedumb sapsinto not filling their tags for a few years and try to make our selfish motives look like it's for their own good?)
Big racks are nice, butWHY are they nice? It's because they are SPECIAL. They are out of the ordinary. Taking a deer with an exceptional rack is something not everyone has done, or will ever do.
By the same token, I remember when bowhunting was special and out of the ordinary. Something not everyone could do. Now with the compound device and mechanical accoutrements, everybody can do it and it's not so special any more. I haven't seen a picture of a bowhunter with a deer on the front page of the newspaper in nearly 40 years. It used to be big news when a deer fell to an arrow. Now, taking a deer with bow and arrow has gotten so easy andmundane that nobody even notices any more.
How much easier do you guys want it? Artificial food sources, artificially manipulated herd ratios, artificial bows.... Each and everyaspect geared specifically to making it easier to kill a deer with an arrow.
So, horn hunters,what happens when you get your way and it's easy to shoot a big racked buck? When big racks are so common that they no longer special? What happens to your exceptional egos when your trophiesbecome ordinary? Answer that.You gonna start preaching to everyone that they should pass on those10 point dinks and let 'em grow to be 12's? 14's? How big are you going to have to go before racks get special again?
What a CROCK!
The way I see this QDM, TQM, stuff, it's not done for the sake of the herd at all. Someone else back yonder a ways in the thread said it's all about the horns. That's not quite the whole story. It's all for the sake of the guys who want to shoot big racks but aren't willing totrust to theluck of the drawand take what nature provides. It's for the guys who want it to be easy enough that they don't have to spend as much time in the woods as it'd take to get an HONEST trophy. It's all about artificially enhancing their chances at a trophy.
And they want to put themselves forward asthe new breedof elite hunters and make everyone else feel badfor not passing up deer that don't meet some mytical standard?Phhhhbbbbttttt![:'(]
Please, spare me the smoke and mirrors. I know you QDM typesdon't want any of this discussed but, since I've watched this wholeconcept develop over the past 20 years, I know the truth of the matter.
Remember, I gave you fair warning.
I had a guy like this approach me at Hoyt booth and lean over the counter and say, "too complicated, I hunt the hard way" while wrinkling his nose. I asked "Oh yeah, what's the hard way?"....of course I knew the response that was coming, "I use a recurve." To that I repsonded, "what's so hard about that" and the oncoming look was priceless......I then asked "IF a deer was 20 yards from you, could you hit it every time?" "Of course I can" came the harsh response as I then said, "SO can I, so what's so hard about that". (IN fact, I missed 2 years ago one at 16 yards which I'm sure a stick bow shooter could have hit)..I then said, "isn't the challenge then to get them within that effective bow range rather than hitting the deer"? He walked away with smile and agreement.
SO I ask you AP, why is it easier with a compound when the majority of bucks/deer ever taken are within range of a stick bow shooter? Hey, your brought it up.
11-29-2006 | 10:52 AM
#172
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,091
Likes: 0
From: Bremen, GA.
RE: little ones make big ones
ORIGINAL: Arthur P
Yeah, I think I remember seeing that somewhere back there...[8D]
I'm done biting my tongue and holding back on this garbage. Here's my real opinion about this matter. There will be some strong opinions, sarcasm andunflattering comments - aimed at the group, not at any individual -in this post, so this is fair warning. You guys might want to get out the steel toed boots and get 'em laced up, 'cuz I'm fixin' to do some stompin'.
First, the obvious. Horn hunters want big racks. Their mantra: Let the little ones go so they can grow.
Why? Simple. Sothere willbe more deer with big racks. Why? More deer with bigracks in the woods, means it'll be EASIER to find deer with big racks. It has absolutely nothing to do with maintaining the natural age balance of the herd, but that's too bad. The demands of the trophy hunter's ego come before the demands of Nature.
Keep the buck/doe ratio 1:1. It has nothing to do with maintaining the buck to doe ratio as nature intended. It will be much EASIER to find those bucks when they can't stay in cover buthave to chase all over hell and back to find the one doe he's supposed to be with, or to fight it out with a whole bunch ofother bucks for breeding rights. Morefighting than he'd have to do in a herd with a natural balance, certainly.Not too good for the deer but that's too bad. The demands of the trophy hunter's ego againtakes precedence overthe demands of Nature.
Look, trophy hunters. As I said earlier in this mess, you've already gone easier with equipment. It's easier to shoot accurately with a compound and sights than it is with a barebow recurve. You hunt from treestands because it's easier than hunting at eye level with the animals. You plant food plots to draw deer and concentrate them where you want them, so they'll beeasier to find. You buy every piece of garbage on the store shelves that you think even MIGHT give you an edge and make hunting easier. It's already gottentoo easy to just shoot a deer, so now you have to shoot a BIG deer? Oh, the demands of the trophy hunter's ego!
Oooo!But wait! It's toodarn difficult to only shoot big deerbecause there aren't that many big ones. Gotta do what we did with equipment and make it easier. How? Ahhh! By artifically manipulating herd balances, not to mention the attitudes of other hunters. (Behind closed doors they ask one another.... Is it possible to talk thosedumb sapsinto not filling their tags for a few years and try to make our selfish motives look like it's for their own good?)
Big racks are nice, butWHY are they nice? It's because they are SPECIAL. They are out of the ordinary. Taking a deer with an exceptional rack is something not everyone has done, or will ever do.
By the same token, I remember when bowhunting was special and out of the ordinary. Something not everyone could do. Now with the compound device and mechanical accoutrements, everybody can do it and it's not so special any more. I haven't seen a picture of a bowhunter with a deer on the front page of the newspaper in nearly 40 years. It used to be big news when a deer fell to an arrow. Now, taking a deer with bow and arrow has gotten so easy andmundane that nobody even notices any more.
How much easier do you guys want it? Artificial food sources, artificially manipulated herd ratios, artificial bows.... Each and everyaspect geared specifically to making it easier to kill a deer with an arrow.
So, horn hunters,what happens when you get your way and it's easy to shoot a big racked buck? When big racks are so common that they no longer special? What happens to your exceptional egos when your trophiesbecome ordinary? Answer that.You gonna start preaching to everyone that they should pass on those10 point dinks and let 'em grow to be 12's? 14's? How big are you going to have to go before racks get special again?
What a CROCK!
The way I see this QDM, TQM, stuff, it's not done for the sake of the herd at all. Someone else back yonder a ways in the thread said it's all about the horns. That's not quite the whole story. It's all for the sake of the guys who want to shoot big racks but aren't willing totrust to theluck of the drawand take what nature provides. It's for the guys who want it to be easy enough that they don't have to spend as much time in the woods as it'd take to get an HONEST trophy. It's all about artificially enhancing their chances at a trophy.
And they want to put themselves forward asthe new breedof elite hunters and make everyone else feel badfor not passing up deer that don't meet some mytical standard?Phhhhbbbbttttt![:'(]
Please, spare me the smoke and mirrors. I know you QDM typesdon't want any of this discussed but, since I've watched this wholeconcept develop over the past 20 years, I know the truth of the matter.
Remember, I gave you fair warning.
Some where in here or another one it is suggested. Shoot the little ones so the bigs breed....
I'm done biting my tongue and holding back on this garbage. Here's my real opinion about this matter. There will be some strong opinions, sarcasm andunflattering comments - aimed at the group, not at any individual -in this post, so this is fair warning. You guys might want to get out the steel toed boots and get 'em laced up, 'cuz I'm fixin' to do some stompin'.
First, the obvious. Horn hunters want big racks. Their mantra: Let the little ones go so they can grow.
Why? Simple. Sothere willbe more deer with big racks. Why? More deer with bigracks in the woods, means it'll be EASIER to find deer with big racks. It has absolutely nothing to do with maintaining the natural age balance of the herd, but that's too bad. The demands of the trophy hunter's ego come before the demands of Nature.
Keep the buck/doe ratio 1:1. It has nothing to do with maintaining the buck to doe ratio as nature intended. It will be much EASIER to find those bucks when they can't stay in cover buthave to chase all over hell and back to find the one doe he's supposed to be with, or to fight it out with a whole bunch ofother bucks for breeding rights. Morefighting than he'd have to do in a herd with a natural balance, certainly.Not too good for the deer but that's too bad. The demands of the trophy hunter's ego againtakes precedence overthe demands of Nature.
Look, trophy hunters. As I said earlier in this mess, you've already gone easier with equipment. It's easier to shoot accurately with a compound and sights than it is with a barebow recurve. You hunt from treestands because it's easier than hunting at eye level with the animals. You plant food plots to draw deer and concentrate them where you want them, so they'll beeasier to find. You buy every piece of garbage on the store shelves that you think even MIGHT give you an edge and make hunting easier. It's already gottentoo easy to just shoot a deer, so now you have to shoot a BIG deer? Oh, the demands of the trophy hunter's ego!
Oooo!But wait! It's toodarn difficult to only shoot big deerbecause there aren't that many big ones. Gotta do what we did with equipment and make it easier. How? Ahhh! By artifically manipulating herd balances, not to mention the attitudes of other hunters. (Behind closed doors they ask one another.... Is it possible to talk thosedumb sapsinto not filling their tags for a few years and try to make our selfish motives look like it's for their own good?)
Big racks are nice, butWHY are they nice? It's because they are SPECIAL. They are out of the ordinary. Taking a deer with an exceptional rack is something not everyone has done, or will ever do.
By the same token, I remember when bowhunting was special and out of the ordinary. Something not everyone could do. Now with the compound device and mechanical accoutrements, everybody can do it and it's not so special any more. I haven't seen a picture of a bowhunter with a deer on the front page of the newspaper in nearly 40 years. It used to be big news when a deer fell to an arrow. Now, taking a deer with bow and arrow has gotten so easy andmundane that nobody even notices any more.
How much easier do you guys want it? Artificial food sources, artificially manipulated herd ratios, artificial bows.... Each and everyaspect geared specifically to making it easier to kill a deer with an arrow.
So, horn hunters,what happens when you get your way and it's easy to shoot a big racked buck? When big racks are so common that they no longer special? What happens to your exceptional egos when your trophiesbecome ordinary? Answer that.You gonna start preaching to everyone that they should pass on those10 point dinks and let 'em grow to be 12's? 14's? How big are you going to have to go before racks get special again?
What a CROCK!
The way I see this QDM, TQM, stuff, it's not done for the sake of the herd at all. Someone else back yonder a ways in the thread said it's all about the horns. That's not quite the whole story. It's all for the sake of the guys who want to shoot big racks but aren't willing totrust to theluck of the drawand take what nature provides. It's for the guys who want it to be easy enough that they don't have to spend as much time in the woods as it'd take to get an HONEST trophy. It's all about artificially enhancing their chances at a trophy.
And they want to put themselves forward asthe new breedof elite hunters and make everyone else feel badfor not passing up deer that don't meet some mytical standard?Phhhhbbbbttttt![:'(]
Please, spare me the smoke and mirrors. I know you QDM typesdon't want any of this discussed but, since I've watched this wholeconcept develop over the past 20 years, I know the truth of the matter.
Remember, I gave you fair warning.
.. Very Good post!
I agree 100%
11-29-2006 | 10:53 AM
#173
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,668
Likes: 0
From: NY
RE: little ones make big ones
ORIGINAL: Germ
So your saying there are no 3.5 year deer, doe or buck in your area?
So your saying there are no 3.5 year deer, doe or buck in your area?
What happens is this, Deer are born 99% bucks are shot so the 1 or 2 that are left breed the doe's, Correct?
11-29-2006 | 10:55 AM
#175
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
Likes: 0
RE: little ones make big ones
Arthur do you feel better?
I agree with some of what you said!
Rob:
Can't hardly argue with that except, why drag equipment choices into the same arena as QM?
Now, as to most deer being taken within range of a stickbow, that's immaterial. Only a small percentage of bowhunters use traditional equipment. And only a small percentage of those will ever shoot beyond 20 yards. According to the many, many polls taken on the subject, most compound users have no qualms against dumping the string within 30 yards.
You complain about equipment elitism but see no problem with antler size elitism?
11-29-2006 | 10:57 AM
#176
Boone & Crockett
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 11,682
Likes: 0
From: Michigan/Ohio
RE: little ones make big ones
I told you as much as I could from 40 years of first hand DATA collected from my deer woods. Your statements are being made from a stand on daddy's farm 2 states away. I'll take mine for accuracy
It is reality.........not a complaint. It was also in reference to young deer being called dumb and easy to kill. My point being that a 1 1/2 old deer in Kansas that guys pee on is not the same animal as one with 2 wounds and 5 other close calls with an army of guys trying to wax him.
11-29-2006 | 10:59 AM
#177
Boone & Crockett
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 11,682
Likes: 0
From: Michigan/Ohio
RE: little ones make big ones
ORIGINAL: Arthur P
Yep. Had to let off some of that steam before I busted a gasket. [8D]
Actually, I'm astounded you found any room at all for DISagreement.[:-]
Arthur do you feel better?
I agree with some of what you said!
11-29-2006 | 11:00 AM
#178
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,668
Likes: 0
From: NY
RE: little ones make big ones
ORIGINAL: Germ
Atlas I agree and respect your choice, I am happy for you. All I am saying is there are mature deer in your area
Atlas I agree and respect your choice, I am happy for you. All I am saying is there are mature deer in your area
If I lived up there I would hunt just like you, I am serious.
11-29-2006 | 11:01 AM
#179
Boone & Crockett
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 11,682
Likes: 0
From: Michigan/Ohio
RE: little ones make big ones
ORIGINAL: atlasman
I couldn't be that absolute about it..........someone has to win the lottery.
Using specific numbers to make this point is useless...........just say what's on your mind.
ORIGINAL: Germ
So your saying there are no 3.5 year deer, doe or buck in your area?
So your saying there are no 3.5 year deer, doe or buck in your area?
What happens is this, Deer are born 99% bucks are shot so the 1 or 2 that are left breed the doe's, Correct?
11-29-2006 | 11:01 AM
#180
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,668
Likes: 0
From: NY
RE: little ones make big ones
ORIGINAL: Germ
Arthur do you feel better?
I agree with some of what you said!
Atlas I could be QB, not a good example, have you seen the lions, LOL
Arthur do you feel better?
I agree with some of what you said!
Again, with the misquotes and misrepresentation............what excuses? How could I be making excuses for something I don't even do or have any desire to do?? That is about as dumb as saying "Germ could be QB of the Lions if he wanted to but he is just making excuses and isn't man enough to do what it takes"
Good point..............Colts then.