GREG/MO Thank you very much for the reply. After my first back surgery I purchased the Diamond Black Ice and had it set on 50lbs. The bow I owned before it was a 60-70 bow so I knew I had to buy a new bow so I could draw it back without hurting myself. I can draw back the black ice with ease no problem (I actually shot it yesterday a few times) thats why I am interested in the 82nd and the 101st so I can get some more speed. Thats another thing that I have been wondering about these bows is how smooth the draw is. How does it compare to the black ice? I have never had the black ice chronoed do you have any idea what it shoots at 50lbs, from what I have heard it is probably around 270 or so. Thanks for what you said about my back as well it makes me feel good to know what someone I do not know would care like that. That is why I love the hunting community as a whole so much. On average they are just much nicer people. Thanks again for the replies folks.

Alex,

The first 82nds were built Friday, so it won't be too long before they start showing up at some dealers now...

bubba,

Out of all the "toys" I have in my possession -- to include a home archery shop better than just about all the retailers' around here -- the one thing I don't own is a chrono. Maybe some day, but for whatever reason I've just never bought one.

I haven't drawn either of the Airbornes yet, but early reports are saying the 101st with smooth mods feels very much like the Allegiance with speed mods... I'm intimately familiar with the Ally and speed mods, as I took that exact combination to the woods with me close to 100 times over the last couple years...

I also owned and shot a Black Ice for a good while. In comparing those two draw experiences, I think it's going to be what you get "used" to... To me -- personally -- I think a single-cam experience is by nature a smoother-drawing feel. I like how they "ease" into the draw cycle, stacking slowly and building to their peak before falling off... Binaries by nature stack a lot quicker.

Remember, it's the whole "tradeoff" idea... In photography, you're constantly trading off between light-gathering ability and shutter speed. In athetics, it'spower and brute force vs. speed and grace... In archery, it's butter-smooth draw force curve vs. blistering speeds.

The neat thing about watching technology advance the world of bow engineering is that we are getting closer to marrying those last two concepts -- at least closer than we've ever been.

GREG/MO "I like how they "ease" into the draw cycle, stacking slowly and building to their peak before falling off... Binaries by nature stack a lot quicker. " What do you mean when you say stacking? I am not sure if we can compare them this way but lets try, if my black ice at 50lbs feels smooth to me would the airborne at 50lbs maybe feel like im drawing my black ice at 54lbs. Not sure if that makes sense. I can still draw back 60lbs pretty easily but I cant shoot a bunch of arrows in a row and I do not want to chance being in the treestand and having to sit down to shoot at a weird angle and ouch my back know what I mean and I know with a well placed shot 50lbs is plenty to kill a whitetail. What I am trying to do is just get a bow at 50lbs that will still shoot fast but also be relatively easy to draw back with a good letoff and solid back wall. Also are the airbornes anything like the black ice where it has a solid backwall but still kinda jerks forward on you a little bit sometimes. Not sure if that makes sense again sorry. What is your opinion on the black ice, when you had it did you like it and would you trust it at 50lbs shooting at the state record buck. I have never posted in forums like these before but have always read on them. I hope I am not asking too much when I message and if I am or I am asking too often please let me know, just have a lot of time on my hands since the injury. Thanks again for the reply.

When I say "stacks quicker", what I mean is that you'll feel the weight of the bow earlier in the draw cycle.

Think about it this way: Instead of feeling 10, 15, 30, 45, 55, 60 and then falling into the valley... you might (again, just an example...) feel 10, 35, 55, 60, 60, 60 and then fall into the valley. That's an extreme example, but the point is you hit the peak of the draw force curve earlier on. Hitting that peak earlier and holding it longer is one way engineers build speed into a bow's design.

Therefore, it's not as simple as saying a 50-lb. Allegiance is going to feel like a 54-lb. Black Ice. Fifty pounds of draw weight is fifty pounds. The only difference is when you encounter it during the draw cycle, and how long you have to pull through it.

The back walls are going to be absolutely rock solid, because of the draw-stop peg. One of the things I love about that peg is it allows me to tinker with the valley, making it "wider" or more narrow as I want... I personally prefer a nice, wide valley that gives me a bit more room for error so that if I do creep slightly, she doesn't "want to go" as much, as you alluded to. That's also a function of proper draw length, which allows you to hold the bow at full draw by squeezing your shoulder blades together properly... and having some more room left at the end to keep squeezing those back muscles together to trigger the release.

Now... would I have complete confidence in shooting a 50-lb. Black Ice at a state-record buck. Yes, I think I would, though I've never shot a bow with that low of a poundage. The reason I can say that is the same answer I give a lot of people when I'm working a trade show or helping out at a dealer event when asked about shooting 60- or 70-lb. bows: What's your goal? To stick the arrow 3" in the dirt after shooting the deer, or 6"? Bows today are so efficient, and when shooting a properly tuned outfit with razor-sharp broadheads, 50-lb. bows will cleanly slice through the vitals of anydeer with no problem -- provided you stay away from the shoulder, which you should be doing any way. And I can tell you from experience: It doesn't matter WHAT bow you're shooting in conjunction with WHAT head -- if you smack the shoulder blade on the ball of the joint directly, you WILL NOT get penetration.

All this talk of 36" being a long ATA is sort of silly, by thinking this,you're buying into the bow marketing campaigns. Guys that shoot a 60" recurvedon't have trouble in a tree stand. I hunt whitetails with a Mathews, Conquest 3 @41" ATA and have never had a problem with tree stand manuverability. I have a personal policy not to go shorter than 35" ATA.Balance is key with archery (hunting), nothing should be extreme--arrow not too light, poundage comfortable for your stengthlevel, and ATA in a forgiving range. You won't find manyguys who are really serious about acuracy shooting a toy bow with a 29-31" ATA. JMHO.

The earlierpost about the Bowtech birth certificates being accurate? I'm a fanatic about arrow speed out of a bow, not high speed as Ihunt withaluminum arrows but more sothings that affect arrow speed and arrow flight, string attachments of all sorts, even the type of realese you shoot affects speed. I've chronographed severalBowtech bows with a true IBOarrow for the rigand I've found that they are 10-30 fps slower than what's statedon the birth certificate. Granted, I have not donethis to a 2008 Bowtech so if it's changed when I chrono the new Airborne 101I'm getting I'll post the results.

It's not my typical mature to call someone out like this, but what in the world are you smoking? If you're getting speeds 10-30 fps slower than what they advertise, then I seriously suggest you have your chrono checked.

Both of my Bowtechs which are not new models by any means shot within 2fps of what was stated on the birth certificate and that could be variance between the 2 chronos. Give me some examples of the results you have seen.

I've shot Bowtechs since 03 and my BC's have always been close also

Dan

Thanks, Mike... I actually didn't want to answer this one from just my own experiences, as there's PLENTY of quotes to pull from various shop owners who handle multiple lines -- not just Bowtech -- who verify Bowtech's published speeds all the time. Unfortunately, I can't get the search engine to work right now.

If you're seeing speeds 10-30 fps slower than stated on the birth certificate, you're the only one I've heard of who's experienced this... and I cruise a LOT of forums -- AND I visit every Bowtech dealer within a three-hour radius of my house probably once a month. Only one or two of these dealers carry Bowtech exclusively, so the rest would not have ANY problem telling me if they were experiencing anything similiar.

Just to clarify, Bowtech obtains its speed ratings using a Custom Chrono, Heavy Duty ProShop Meter and digital scales to check the bow's poundage, which have a variance of +/- 1%. Bowtech's speed ratings are acquired with a factory-installed brass nock and the Hush Kit on bows featuring that accessory. Those items alone probably rob the final number by 5 fps or more, so you can see that Bowtech is doing its best to put out true numbers, not inflated ones by testing with nothing on the string.

I've yet to see a Bowtech which wouldn't make the advertised speed range published in the catalogs and on the websites, and there are many dealers and/or consumers on various forums that will back that up.

My Chrono is on as I've compared it to others. I've chronoed about7 bowtechs (i've owned 4 myself)and none of them were what they were stated as being. Disclaimer, I am a huge Bowtech fan so don't get sensitive, Ilove the bows and am not bashing them whatsoever. The only bows that I think are absolutlyhorrible are the new Hoyts ever since they went tothe cam and 1/2. I've owned these too and would never buy again until they revamp thier line like PSE just did.

I have many hunter friends who have told me the samething about speedas I always ask them thestats of their bows when they get a new one, we just come to expect a lower # and are plesently suprised if it's within 10 fps of the stated #. I also had a pro shop owner tell me that he took his chrono out of the shop because bowbuyers were shooting anIBO arrow through the chrono in his shopand thengot upset or even demanded an exchange at the disapointing speedresults. He was a volume dealer and sold 100's of bows each season.He did state however that all bow companies overstate advertised speed, not just Bowtech and that's why he tookthe chronoout of his shop. If you guys are experiencing the same speed thenI believe your results but I have extensive testing on my side which substatiates mystatments from my own experiences. I havetested the same model bow, same year,samepoundage (or very close), same draw, same arrow, same everythingand have notice large speed differences, you can just get afast or slow bow sometimes. Isuspect that if the limbs are matched well it's fast but if one is out of balance from the other then it affects performance? Once again, I'll chrono my new 101st Airborne once I get it and post thereal results, maybe this one will be dead on and I can eat my words this time?I hope so as that would be great.I was just sharing my own experiences.

My 28" draw (speed mods) 60# Allegianceshot a 343 grain arrow over 300fps. Is that below the speed rating? Let's see that works out to 330+fps IBO stats, 60# 30" draw shooting a 300 grain arrow.I think the Allegiance advertises a speed range of 327 fps to 335 fps with speed mods. Seems pretty close to meI won't argue this point with you, but Bowtech's advertised speeds are very close to real world speeds. I too stay in touch with several shops in my area, and I haven't seen any dealers afraid to line'em up and trot'em through a Chrono. The 101 that came in here is faster than advertised by a little. Hope you have the same experience

Dan