I really do and did not want to get in this conversation because there will never be a winner.... the only thing that I would point out is the fact that I believe you to be wrong on this point. Not that it should have any bearing on what you choose to shoot.

If what you are indicating were truly true... then why in the world is every body else that hunts big game here and or anywhere else not shooting big conicals. Granted there are a handful of folks shooting lead and most of the organized traditionalists groups want to require a ML shooter to shoot pure lead while hunting becuase they also know that modern bullets would increase the success rate which would reduce the ML opportunities. Further if what you are indicating is true or even close to the facts don't you believe that there would be a major manufacturer producing lead conicals to meet the demand - there just isn't a demand. Agreed Hornady and other manufactures produce a given amount of conicals, but what percentage of sales do you think they might have vs. the more modern bullets. The demand is not there because hunters across the world believe that copper jacket lead, copper, and brass bullets have better terminal performance across the board.

I shoot .503-460 Bull Shops and they work well for me. I shoot them because I am required to by the State and the lobbiests that help make the rules. I would much prefer to shoot a bullet that I know has better terminal ballistics and I believe is more humane in most given instances.

Does that mean you have to believe what I believe... not even close... that is why I used the "I" in this statement. I is not you or Flounder or Chief or anyone else that prefers to hunt with a conical. It is your right to make that decision.

Now let's go have a

I am getting into this a bit late but I do want to touch on a couple of points.
It is my opinion that the boys in the speed gets er done crowd are guys that want a rifle and bullet combo that will be capable of hitting the target at long range. They also want enough whomp at that range to hopefully get the job done. They for the most part have scopes that they adjust for a certain range and they want as little hold over as possible.
The Conical boys are the kind of guys that for the most part shoot open sights and for the most part stay around 100 yards of less. They use them because they feel that they do a better job than the PRB. Their rifles for the most part have fixed sights and the hold over is too much to estimate past 125 yards.

I am in a slightly different crowd. I believe in big heavy conicals. I trust MY paper patched Lee 500 S&W bullets to sink deep. I have seen enough of them hit game now that I am starting to prove reliability. First off this bullet has a wide meplat. The wide meplat hits like a freight train on steroids. I don't know of any ML bullet that provides a meplat as wide as the Lee 500 S&W bullet.
I custom pour these bullets to a specific hardness and the load is tuned to the rifle. Quality control is kept to +-.5 grains. If you want to see a shocker weigh some of your store bought bullets and compare them for weight.
I have seen them enter a big mule deer buck at the shoulder breaking the shoulder and exiting out through the hind quarter at 117 yards. I have seen them plow through deer and antelope form all angles and I have NEVER seen a recovered bullet.

Next the hold over. Unless a guy is using a scope that is built to adjust like a sniper scope your going to have to hold over or use some kind of built in multiple crosshair model to keep from having to hold over. Traditional Iron sights just can't handle long range. The traditional front sight is too thick to aim small. Rear buck horn sights are just a shot in the dark past 100 yards maybe less.
Sabots have been popular to help speed things up to the point that hold over is minimized. But it is still there.

Again I am in a different crowd. I use a front sight that is a BPCR style front sight. It is designed for long range. My rear sight is a Lyman 57 SML. It is field adjustable. So if my range finder says 100 I set the sight at 100 and hold dead on. If the range finder says 135 I set it and hold dead on. If the range finder says 175 I set it for 175 and hold dead on. No hold over or hold under.
I don't need to shoot a super fast bullet for a antelope, or try to set up for elk. I shoot one load for everything. So far it has never let me down. Ron

mike we can debate it until the cows come home.to answer your questions. why does everyone want speed and saboted is like asking why everyone wants the next new whiz bang computer or cell phone that hits the market, or the new BDC scope. i could give you a 100 more examples.what we all need to ask ourselves, are all these new whiz bang products really needed?do they really make phoning someone or using a computer that much better? does a brass or copper bullet really kill that much better than a conical? it's human nature to want faster, bigger, better,easier plain and simple. but by no means are these things necessary for most people. everyone can shoot whatever they like, but in the long run my friend, they don't kill any better than a quality conical.and i assure you the animal can not tell the difference..our high tech world has created a lot of good and a lot more bad IMHO.. i have personally shot deer, elk and hogs with conicals and quality bullets from center fire rifles and the bottom line is dead is dead and those animals didn't move after being hit by any of them. this is fact my friend not fiction.. Ray

Okay i'm done on this one. Batchief grounded me.

Didn't you hear that the "don't ask, don't tell" policy is back in effect?
I suppose I could store that rifle for you until you get an empty corner.
Or you could sell me your Ultra Mag.

Art

Over the years I have been on both sides of the question. I find almost all the points made are true. The bottom line is they both work quite well if you are a good enough shooter and dead is dead. What is difficult for me to understand is why there is always someone trying to bully everyone into doing it their way. I think everyone should concentrate on doing what they do better and let the others do it as they like.

Ron,

I'm not sure why you want a bullet that busts up the front shoulder and exits out the hind quarter?

That's all edible meat. I try to kill the game without spoiling any of the meat I want.

A 300 gr Barnes through the lungs is more than enough.

Big heavy clunkers = nope

Small fast bullets = nope

Middle of those = bang-flop

Amen!!!!!!

emmmm... let me be perfectly clear about this one... The White is untouchable...

and I an reviewing your thoughts and suggestion about 'Don't Ask - Don't Tell' policy...

The other thing that I am considering... I could always indicate that Tom, Dave, or even you sent it to me to 'wring' it out for them as they do not have time...

Lee i totally agree with you and i do shoot both at the moment, although that will change soon enough. i am moving to the strictly conical corner for many reasons not just one. the biggest reason being it's just plain fun. Ray