I very respectfully take exception to the 1st statement in this post. The SAVAGE 10ML is the "cream of the crop" and the "caddy" of the ML world. Mabye in the black powder( and BP substittute)world, T/C is at the top(although IMO, its Knight) but Im sorry, there is just no comparison of any conventional "dirt burner" and the mighty SAVAGE. Its simple, Savage uses smokeless powder, the only production ML that can! This means less powder, less recoil, NO CLEANING whatsoever, and ballistics and accuracy that out perform any conventioal ML, slug gun ,or even most big bore leverguns. If thats not enough, one word , ACCUTRIGGER!

IMVHO foriegn made MLs are basically disposable guns(sorry if that offends anyone) , TC are very good, knight is a little more accurate, and Savage is the ultimate! (production ML)

Then you won't mind me very respectfully taking exception to that

I have spent a lot of time on Doug's Savage Board over the past 2-3 years even though I don't own one (I like to keep informed on the newest technologies). Unless it's pretty cold out or you stay with conservative loads pretty darn close to what our "dirtburners" can do, you have to wait a good 15 minutes between shots for the groups to stay together. That may be OK in the field, but I like to shoot my guns a fair amount and 1 group/hour is NOT acceptable. This is the primary reason I do not own a Savage. Until they formulate sabots that can "'take the heat" or make it easier to shoot sabotless like some guys do, it's an imperfect compromise.

Quality-wise, ballistics/cleaning aside, I don't see a big advantage for Savage over T/C. There are some standard mods done to Savages if you're really serious about them, like the third pillar. They're both solid guns. Note also that the Savage is built on a centerfire platform -- if any other competitor entered the smokeless game they could leapfrog Savage quickly by designing a dedicated platform, kind of like T/C did to Knight in the inline business.

Spaniel, you make some good points, BUT ......

1)Its much more like 5 minutes in between shots in temps over 60 deg. which is really not that big a deal. I just bring a couple other guns along to shoot in between.

2) Although I think savage could improve the 10ML in some ways, I dont think TC Icon has leapfroged Savage in the CF dept, in fact I havent heard much positive feedback on the Icon at all, certainly they havent gained the reputation for out of the box accuracy savage has, so I dont see why they would make such a superior smokeless ML.

3) the only leapfrogging TC did to Knight was in marketing , I still feel knights are more accurate than TCs. I see alot of guys haveing a hard time w/ getting encores to group well,and Ive always though TC triggers werent anything to bragg about, but Ive never seen a inaccurate knight.

4) There are ways around the 3rd pillar, like the EZ tool, or just marking the rear action screw to match the stock, but IME Ive never had the POI change cause I loosened the rear action screw.



If Ive given the impression I think TC are not excellent guns that will service 90% of the hunters out there, as good as they need, let me just say again, TC are very good guns, but they ,as well as any other ML, simply cannot do what the Savage does and it baffels me that TC ,knight or remington have not jumped into the smokeless arena yet, but until they do Savage is the ML king!

Now all they need to do is a dime's worth of advertising and promotion for it and it wont be such an enigma.

I have a Savage, a Knight Disc and a TC Omega and I have used the Savage 2 years now, this season and all last season. I agree about the 15 minutes, but there are some work arounds to that:

#1 is the barrel coolers that Harley inventedand Richard improved,
#2 is shoot sabotless by kurling a 50 cal bullet or buy a 45 barrel
#3 use an air pump run by a battery and just stick that down the barrel after your shot (I do this)
#4 shoot anyway and don't worry about the 1/2" to 1 inch loss of accuracy, which is what I do most of the time.

As for cleaningyou don't have to clean the Savage every time you shoot, I havenot cleaned mine once since the season started andI leave the bulletand powder in a weekor longer at a time. As for ballistics, that is not true that Savage is about the same, a savage will shoot 2350-2400 withmoderate recoil andthat loadhas a lot of energy and can reach out there to 200 no problem and 300 if you practice (I don't do that, 150 is plenty for me.). So those aresome of the differences between the Savage and regular MLers. Honestly back east hereshooting in woods and thick stuff, 150 max is all ya need and most bullets sighted in 3" high will get you there noproblem. Out west and the midwest shooting250+ yards, a Savage is just the ticket, since you can laser the yardage and the smack of a 300g bullet at 250 is devistating.IfSavage started marketing to the "Shotgun" only states on the advantages of shooting a smokeless 1 shot 100 accurate as heck rifle, they would sell a million of these in NY and Ill. Also a Savagecan be shot with light loadsand less recoil and used with kids andwomen. Honestly I like to use the Savage in regular rifle season, and the regular MLerin MLer season. I did that this year and I like that combo. Next year I think I am going to shoot regular MLer inML season, Savage in rifle season, and then inanterless only season after buck season, I am going to shoot percussion and FL up in Penna with my brother. Why? Just cause I can, just to keep each gun viable and not develop a favorite, and play/tune with different guns.

Also be aware on Doug's the people that answer most posts are the "hot rodders", which are guys that have 2 or 3Savages, spend $1000 on scopes, barrels, stocks, bedding,3rd pillar, etc. I shot mine stock, same gun I bought and put together day 1. It is accurate a heck in just this configuration, actually it is better than I am, that is why I bought a lead sled, since the gun was so much more accurate than what I was use to. On this site, wehave a lot more posters anda lot guys with only a few years of experience get in the mix and offer their experience and opinions, which is a better experience for the poster. OnDoug's Savage board, you can get coughtup in things and spend a lot of money for 1/2 inch of accuracy. Heck dead is dead, bullets are what kill, I like Savage accuracy, but there is a LOT to learn about the Savagegun before "getting good" with it (seating and compression). I think you can shoot book loads right out of the box and dovery well hunting with it. Also I think you can tune and fiddle around quite a bit, in fact Icall it a "mini ballistics lab", since you can duplex loads, shoot sabotless, etc, fiddle and fiddle for the last 1/2 of accuracy. Heck my gun shoots plenty accurate enough for me for hunting.I may get the tool that allows you to take the breech plug out without loosing the action screw, but I have marked mine, so I always screw it back in exactly where it was.
Chap

I own a Savage centerfire rifle & it's a great gun. Have a lot of respect for the company, and no reason to think that the 10ML isn't a fine rifle. Glad you're happy with yours.

That said, I think you're blowing more smoke than my old flintlock does with Goex fffg down the tube. There's still a bunch of us out here who don't need (or even want) a muzzleloader that has better ballistics than a big bore lever. You seem to have worked out a nice pecking order of accuracy by manufacturer. Either you've spent considerable range time witha dozen or sorifles from each company, or your unofficial rankings are about as useful as a sopping wet can of gunpowder.

Bull---t, you're not sorry. Offending people is the only reason you'd post something like that. An awful lot of folks shooting tight groups & killing critters with these foreign-made disposables. They must be buying new ones every year & not telling us.

One thing I would like to add.. to deerbearandhoG and Chaps post. I am not going to argue the excellent craftsmanship in Savage rifles. To try and do so would be futile. But I will add.. just as there are traditional shooters not willing to move or accept if you will,to the inline side of the fence.. there are some inline shooters that will not move to the smokeless side of the fence. Not to mention some states will not move to that smokeless side of the fence as well. Whether I agree with State's attitudes or not. Which I do not. Wisconsin finally got smart and allowed Savages.

Now granted, a Savage can shoot conventional black powder and subs as well as smokeless. BUT by doing so, what is gained? Also, can a Savage owner explain this vent liner to me? What is it, what does it do, and how often do you have to change it?

The thing on the LHS is the tool to remove the breech plug, the thing in the center is the breech plug, the thing on the RHS is the Vent Liner, which screws into the breech plug. You shoot it 100 time, but in my experience about 50 and the hole gets bigger and you loose accuacy. When BP reaches .035 time to throw it away. It comes .032. Chap

Geez guys, I'm not kicking your baby here.

First, I have it on the authority of some of the most experienced Savage shooters that the cooling time is considerably longer than 5min if you are shooting anything remotely superior to blackpowder velocities. Sure, you can rig cooling systems etc to make it tolerable but look back to the topic here -- that's huge effort to circumvent a weakness of the gun! Sure, I can replace the barrel on a Traditions and drop it in a McMillan stock but that doesn't say a whole lot about Traditions, does it?

The comparison to the Icon is irrelevant, you miss my point. Knight innovated inlines, but based them on a centerfire platform complete with a bolt assembly -- a completely unnecessary item in a ML that only adds length and more to clean. TC released the Omega and Encore, both throwing centerfire convention away and designing bottom-up for their specific purpose and the rest is history. Knight and every other manufacturer have been playing catchup ever since.

There is no reason for a bolt on a smokeless ML gun either. If anyone else sees fit to play in this market, they could mimic the TC strategy and design a platform specifically for smokeless ML, not bringing along the baggage of a retrofitted centerfire platform. Edited to add - the breech plug design is also not optimized for what it is for, it is optimized to make up for the pre-existing design of the Savage Model 10 and get past the barrel nut. Another area for potential improvement in a from-scratch design.

As for ways around the 3rd pillar, again, we are talking about the function and design of the gun from the factory, not all the things you can do to make up for it's weaknesses. See the retrofitted Traditions analogy above.

Don't get me wrong, I follow the Savage with great interest. Personally, I'm waiting for the next generation or if I wanted to go smokeless would go with a custom offering or rebarrel to .45 or .40 for sabotless. It's a good gun. But the panacea of the ML world? Not in this man's opinion. I see it roughly equivalent to other high-end MLs with a different set of strengths and weaknesses.

As you mention, most guys here are interested within 150 yds. In that realm, the sole advantage of the Savage is cleaning (you mention recoil but if you are throwing ML bullets at 2400fps you are NOT reducing recoil!). My Omega takes 5-10min to clean, 777 has been a big advance over Pyrodex in that realm. Even my centerfires get a good wipe-down and oil after a day in the field, there is not a big difference.

OK.. so that vent liner is like a backward nipple port of sorts. What happens if you do not change it out soon enough? I almost bought a Savage ML-10 last week. I was bidding on it but was beat. Which is fine by me.

Accuracy degrades, from my understanding.

Some report inline breechplugs also need to be replaced as they erode larger. I have many hundreds through my main Omega with no loss in accuracy so I've never personally seen it. Given the difference in propellants, it would not surprise me if this is why it's seen a lot sooner in a Savage. In a smokeless cartridge gun you never use brass hundreds of times to see any erosion but, similarly, if you get flash holes of differing sizes in your brass it will hurt accuracy.