Agreed 100%. I think it is honestly harder to shoot thana regular inline MLer. I think the TC Triumph at $300 is a better value, since the low end Savage is $500 now.

Agreed, with Blackhorn, there will be little difference in a Savage and any of the other inlines within 150 yards, which is plenty for most hunting situations, especially here in the east. I shot BH this year in my Omega, give it a try, I think you might like it. Chap

Ouch, a bit harsh ,not to mention a little rude dont you think? I was responding to another post proclaiming TCs were "the creme of the crop" of inlines and I simply gave some facts and comparisons to support why I believe the savage is superior. I never said that everyone had to jump on the savage train in order to effectivly hunt w/ a muzzleloader.

As far my "disposable guns" comment, I stand by it, but maybe I could have used a less offensive choice of words since I seemed to have hit a nerve, so again,sorry fellas.

In all honesty though, of the 2 spanish made MLs Ive owned( and witnesed many more) both were hopeless rust buckets ,that were very cheaply made, not to mention horrible 7lb triggers. Heck for a 150$ what more could they be? Did they shoot? Sure. Did they last more than a year? w/ a ton of grease all over em , yeah, but Ive also had plastic ciggarette lighters in my junk drawer for years too , doesnt mean I trust em on nasty late season hunt, nor did I trust those two MLs ,thats why there in a landfill somewhere, and not 2miles into the cold wet forest, laying across my lap where my savage now goes.

If you use a 150$ spanish ML and love it ,and trust it, and kill deer w/ it , I do not look down at that, I admire that & I salute you , I just hope you continue to have better luck than I did.

rust is caused by the moron who uses the rifle and doesnt know how to take care of it. But that is not his fault. Sometimes the guy behind the counter who sells he or she the stuff they need doesnt know his arse from a hole in the ground.

My brother has a cva hawken from the mid 1980s thats in perfect condition. Why? He knows how to take care of it and is not a slob shooter.


" IMVHO foriegn made MLs are basically disposable guns"

My CVA Big Bore Mountain Rifles are certainly not disposable. In fact, a used mountain rifle will catch more $$$ than a TC Hawken thats only a few years old.


As for a 7lb trigger, it seems TC is having a problem with this too.

Savage and TC both have synthetic stocks that plain suck and need to be bedded.

If you want a good gun and an excellent trigger,


CVA Accura

I disagree, CVA and tradition, use cheap nickle or other silver plateing to make novices think theyre "stainless". Then have the gaul to charge more for them[:'(] The blued models look as if they were colored w/ a black sharpie. Mine rusted within hours of being rained on. If dunking a gun in grease is "taking care of it", Ill pass.

Yours and your brother's guns are fine rifles indeed , but the disposable inline ML market hadnt existed yet in the 80s. CVA and Trad. are just import co. I believe, and I doubt the same factory that made your sidelocks are making the newer inlines.


I have never seen or heard of a break action, pump, semi or lever w/ a crisp light, factory trigger.

Why would they bed a ML? It has a thimble and a rod under the barrel.

I agree, savage syn.stocks do suck , but they have recently upgraded them and the 10ML has always been offered in laminate anyway. TC however does NOT ,those prohunter stock are probably the nicest syn. factory stocks Ive ever seen.





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I see an awful lot of guys that have there nose so far up TC's @$$ its not even funny. What IS funny is the fact these same guys are nothing more than a product of TC's marketing campaign. Sure there guns are ok but IMO nothing special. TC's quality control has been tanking recently. I am seeing more and more complaints and QC issues coming from people that purchased a new TC gun. Also TC did NOT invent the interchangeable barrel system. The original would be the NEF HUNTSMAN thank you very much. The ONLY thing TC came out with first was the pivoting breech and now the breech plug that comes out by hand.


What you guys need to do is thank Tony Knight of Knight rifles for inventing the inline in the first place. If it were not for him you just might still be shooting a sidelock.

I have had an Encore for over two years. Never had the any complaints with the gun and do not personally know anything about TC service. My Encore has killed about 7 deer and about 18-20 hogs. It is a very nice looking gun that is easy to clean.However, it is very heavy and is not the gun for an old guy touse on an all day walking hunt. Hunted for two days with it on the 6th and 7th of December and it wore me out packing it around. It is a greattree stand gun an it busted two big hogs from a stand that weekend.

That Encore shootsabout as good as the CVA Stag Horn that i paid about $90 for in 2000.Sometimes the CVA gun shoots a little better.

Yes, breech plugs do wear out. Replaced the breech plug in one of my CVA guns at about 750-900 rounds because the orfice became too big and accuracy started to go down hill. Also you get a lot more blowback. The breech plug in my other CVA gun will get replaced as soon as that loaded gun gets fired at something.

If you'd read the content of this thread and not just wave your hand and proclaim us all marketing suckers, you'd see that I have owned several brands of rifles -- foreign AND American made. I've been around ML since before T/C advertised a drop and before the internet was here for you to read second- or third- hand complaintsabout guns you have never owned or shot and consider it the definitive truth. How many brands have you owned or shot? The only one I have no direct, personal experience with is the Savage.

Do I see T/C advertise on shows? Sure, Pro-Hunters which I don't care to own (I'm not really an Encore fan period - personal taste). Hardly influences me to buy an Omega, of a completely different design. I bought a second Omega too, an X7, because it was a novel offering (short, light with factory peep sights -- who else offers peep sights?) and T/C had impressed me with their QUALITY and CUSTOMER SERVICE on the first gun.

Marketing sucker implies that the marketing is all hype, and that there is nothing in the product to back it up. The reason T/C has held the lead for so long is that the product and service DO back it up!

Sure Knight pioneered inlines and still make quality guns. Then T/C came along and offered innovations that people really liked and Knight did not respond fast enough. While T/C was eliminating an unnecessary bolt, simplifying cleaning, and making hand-removable breechplugs, Knight responded with a gimmicky .52 rifle, some levergun-type thing that hardly sold, and now a rolling-block type action which, while perfectly fine, is hardly a true innovation on a ML and comes with its own issues (scope mounting). If I ever came across a great deal on an Elite I would snap it up, but in 2008 Knight is not the innovator it was in the 1990s.

I do not wish to call some ones rifle a "throw away object". Although some of the MZ's out there are pretty inexpensive. I guess the best way to look at it is like this. I know a lot of guys who traded or sold their CVA's and Traditions rifles for a TC or a Knight rifle. But I have not meta person who traded or sold their Knight or TC for a CVA or Traditions rifle. I guess that is the best way to look at it.

TC has done a fantastic job over the years. But they have changed their marketing over the past few years, and this has left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth for TC. This has nothing to do with their quality or craftsmaship, just their marketing. When I think about the Pro Hunter and how much more they charge over the standard Encore........... Well I do not like the substantial extra charge for the Pro Hunter.

The problem TC has is they went for the "BARNES" method of marketing. They feel they have to come out with something new every year. There is something to be said about consistent long term quality.

Speed of cleaning now seems to be the current "BUZZ" for MZ's. But how much time do you really save(unless you shoot the Savage)?? And at what price??

As I stated earlier I really like the Knight "Disc" system. It may take a little longer to clean. I will not argue about that. But with the advent of using a 209 primer, for my fumble fingers the discs are just easier to handle. And IMO give a better gas seal(non-scientific). And as I have said befoe I have never found the Knight rifles to be finicky(unlike TC). Knight's just seem to shoot whatever you "stuff" down the bore. Even the less expensive models. Tom.

DeerandbearhoG - you are just totally incorrect as regards the CVA Accura. You need to handle on and check it out. The triggers are fantastic and the barrel is precision cut from 416R stainless steel. Great rifles.

I like T/C, and I will agree with this 100%. I consider this the biggest disadvantage to my Omega and the reason I'd snap up an Elite at a good opportunity.