The whole issue here has nothing to do with whichbrand of rifleis better. All we are reading are opinions. I repeat ... OPINIONS. And while one person might like a CVA and another not, that is their OPINION. For what ever reason they hold them. Some might feel Thompson Center are better then other rifles, others Savage, or CVA. And again, all opinions. Granted many opinions are based on facts. But it is how you interpret these fact you are presented with. Also what you interpret as qualitycan make a big difference.

A good case and point. We have all read Chuck Hawks, and Randy Wakeman's warnings of Spanish barrels. These muzzle loading individuals are well respected by many in their field. Not so well respected by others. Just their opinions. But the point is, if these Spanish barrels are so dangerous, why do thousands ignore the warning and shoot them? Well in their opinion I guess they do not believe what is being told them.

I own CVA, Traditions, Remington, White, Thompson Center, Knight, and Lyman rifles. I've owned and shot all of these rifles,for years. When I purchase a $89.00 CVA Staghorn and the finish is not that found on my $300.00+ Knight, or Thompson Centers. To even think they should be the same,that would be foolish. To get the price down, corners have to be cut. Yet my $89.00 CVA has had a I would guess around 500+ rounds (probably more) shot through it. It is super accurate and functions perfect.

Of all my inline rifles, if you want to get down to fit and finish, quality construction, functionality, dependability in the field, accuracy, and versatility it has to be my Whites. Their draw back.. the company folded. Thank goodness there are parts out there and a child could fix one. Handle one, you will understand what I mean. Shoot one and you will be sold. But this is my OPINION. You might disagree.

Last week I had a chance to handle a CVA Accura. Man let me tell you. That thing is sweet. I can see why CVA came out with it. It will compete with any rifle out there. It it shot as nice as it looks and handles. They have a winner there.

I've handled Savages, and again I was very impressed. Just a fine quality rifle. So what did I purchase.. A Remington Genesis. Why? It fit my needs. Low prices, quality construction, innovative design, and so far excellent out of the box accuracy. It was $162.00. How many Savages, Thompson Centers and Knight can I purchase new in the box for that? Do I compare them to the others. No way. I know what I bought, and I am happy with what I own.

So I suggest to all, bickering about who has the best what will do no good. You purchased what you did for your own reasons. It works for you. And whether someone else likes it or not, who cares. Be happy with what you decided on and let the others be happy with theirs.

Cayuqad you indeed are a man of great wisdom and well respected on this and I am sure other forums as well. You sumed it up in a nut shell well said

I have owned many muzzleloaders from knight to TC to NEF to CVA. Every single one of them had there pro's and con's. Lets face it TC hyped up the cleaning time due to there super special breech design on the omegas. It takes me all of 10 seconds longer to clean my knight than it would take me to clean an omega. Knight saw this and didnt think they had anything to really worry about but TC pushed it so hard they brain washed people into thinking it is superior and will save a ton of cleaning time so the omegas sold like hot cakes. The triumph is nothing more than a glorified NEF sidekick with a better breech plug. Also the "weathershield" is a gimmick and alot of people are buying it thinking they are getting a stainless barrel when in fact they are not. Again all of this is due to brain washing people with clever marketing just like Bowtech has done in the archery world.

BTW if you want a .50 Elite I just saw one on modernmuzzleloader the other day for a GOOD price in the classified section.

http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=11025

I don't have a MM password yet, but thanks for the link I will look into it.

I am a professional marketer (surprisingly, looking back) in fact, I am more than a bit familiar with the power of marketing. I guess I give people a little more credit for not being total weak-minded suckers, especially when it comes to things like firearms. One of the primary rules of marketing is to not promise something you cannot deliver. If you do, you may gain in the short-term but in the long-term it will come back to haunt you. Since T/C sales have grown steadily for many years now, it is quite obvious that the shooting public has not felt duped and under-delivered by the T/C product.They perceive they got what was advertised and perception, my friend, is the only truth that matters! As Cayugad wisely stated, we are only talking opinions here. There is no unified truth, only perceptions forming opinions and T/C's sales numbers are a direct reflection of public perception (and opinion).

I know a lot of hunters with Omegas and none of them bought them due to some marketed ease of cleaning -- they virtually all bought them on the feedback of and recommendations from fellow hunters who had had great experiences. I can claim personal credit for getting at least 6 close buddies to buy Omegas or in one case an Encore. T/C was not a big company when they started making MLs and they got all the money to do that advertising from somewhere -- selling a lot of excellent guns. There was a time when you saw a lot more Knight advertising than T/C. They OWNED the market, for several years I didn't know of any inlines other than Knight. Why couldn't Knight brainwash everybody then?

You may see the Triumph as a glorified Sidekick, but the difference in breech plug is far more than a cosmetic marketing piece. Any one of us who has gone to clean our gun or had to pull the plug in the field only to find we forgot a wrench knows that!

I wouldnt consider the foreign or spanishmodels disposable, until they come12 in a pack, and you can shoot them and then throw them away ! You know those Savage ML are made from leftover centerfire parts that didnt make QA...
just kiddin Merry Xmas everyone...........

This thread could go on forever, it doesnt matter, guns,trucks, anything, everyone is gonna have something bad to say about any different brand. Shoot what you like and feels good..... your the only one that has to like it!!

CVA's new utility rifle will be of high quality as well. Look for news at the Shot Show.

Well...My opinion is that T/C is not the best...

I bought a Knight Disc in the late 90s and I feel that it is the best...It has a Green Mountain barrel, an adjustable trigger, a screw safety so you don't have to decap when pulling up the tree and the discs are easier to cap then trying to fool around with a primer...Once you fire the gun, you open the bolt and the disc will drop out in your hand...I reuse these discs 3-4 times...It's a very nice gun...An adjustable trigger to me is worth the few extra minutes it takes to pull the bolt out and disassemble and clean...

A buddy of mine has a Wolverine and another has an American Knight, all are great shooters...

I actually use my custom flintlocks much more than the inline...As far as custom guns being only for rich...Thanks for the compliment...
If you ever hold a custom made flintlock with a swamped barrel and feel the difference in how they balance, you might understand...
One of mine was bought in 1977 and I paid less than $500 for, the other, I built myself for less than $500...I mold my own round balls, buy Goex
for about $12 bucks a pound, buy a yard of pillow ticking from WalMart for about $4 bucks and make my own lube and bought about 50 flints for each back in the 80s...I can tell you that I can shoot my flintlocks much cheaper thanI canthe inline...

I get about 87 shots out of a pound of Goex with my .54 and with my squirrel load I get 280 shots to the pound with my .40...

I dont believe I ever mentioned the cva accura specifically . The guns Ive owned and handled were made in the earlier part of this decade, if CVA has started using stainless barrels and improved the overall quality of their product, than kudos to them and Im glad you guys have found a quality, lower priced ML ,because 5 years ago, ya got what ya paid for when it came to inlines.

Interestingly, I found I could get a better quality, used sidelock for less than a cheap inline, cause it seemed everyone was getting rid of their sidelocks and buying inlines, and the shelves were full of em. Ive probably owned 5 inlines and 6 sidelocks and now Ive realized conventional MLing is a hobby I just dont have time for.

If I ever buy another ML it will be NULA .45 and only cause the savage is too heavy for any long distance stalking, which I rarley do. I dont see myself buying another "black powder" gun but if I did it, would be a knight disc extreme or elite.

Enjoy your muzzleloading guys, whatever you shoot

I like TC's...

I guess I agree with cayugadfor the most part, its just that if you have own a shop and worked on all kinds of guns for a lot of years the opinion you form is base on a certain amount of facts.
While some of the older across the ocean brands were awful at one time I disagree about the barrels there were a few odd incidents because of poor QC but over all the barrels are the best part of there guns, and most of them are quite accurate; the part my experience takes exception to is some of there breach plugs, the incidence of burn out and cracking is high enough to make me leery.
Then there is the fact that the same people who buy foreign cars and foreign guns wonder why all the jobs went overseas.
There is nothing wrong with most of the guns we are talking about, I just happened to like TC and Knight best the Savages are a fine quality gun but I prefer not to have bolt action or smokeless muzzle loaders and when it comes down to digging out the bill fold that personal preference and opinion are what count. Lee