Chap,

The problem I have with your statement is that is respresentsme as saying somethingwhich I didn't say. But rather than say you are lying, I will say you are just being bullheaded and don't read. I never said I wouldn't have taken Mike's shot, I never said it was pathetic and irresponsible. I told you twice to re-read what I wrotewhich clearly described shot placement different than that chosen by Mike.

Whether I would have taken the shot Mike took isn't at issue and I have made no statements regarding it. It boils down to this, people who take responsible shots, don't lose game no matter what projectile they use.

Rather than making this a Mike vs Phil character assasination, why don't you recognize it for what it is. Its about real world experience with projectiles or the lack of it. So I poked fun at the post, and I made a statement about whose experience I would rely on. I trust that Mike is man enough to take the ribbing and has the integrityto admit, as I did regarding T/C, that he shouldn't be advising on somethinghe hasn't personally experienced.

As for you, I suggest that you follow the "GOOD BOOK" you are always preaching from here. Go back, re-read the posts, and stop making false judgements and making false statements about what I have written. And when you have done that, I would behappy to accept your apology and let the bygones be gone.

As far as projectile choice, "there is no magic bullet". Where do you suppose that little phrase came from? Fact is, they will all do the job if placed responsibly. If we spent more time discussing the subleties of shot placement, there would certainly be more success in the field.

I agree, it would have been pathetic and irresponsible if he was using a PB. I can say that because I used to use them, don't anymore. I would'nt hesitate taking that shoot with a big conical.

Frankly, I do understand that but to be honest, I don't see that as your motivation. I think you are nursing that cobb and this has more to do with your disdain than defending sabotloader. For one thing, sabotloader and hisintegrityisn't under attack.

I don't feel I can rely on his basalt pit experiements with PBs. I do feel I can rely on the experience of the many successful hunters who use them. Personal experience and successful use goes along way me on this issue. You made the "trust" part a personal thing, I didn't.

When you bring in things like, "might have just as well called him a liar or idiot", you bring things which are neither appropriate for discussion, nor beneficial to the underlying topic ofsuccessful recovery of game. What it becomes then is character bashing and has no place here.

Pglasgow

OK let's try this again from my perspective and I'll try to re-create what I thought I said and what I think.

PowerBelts are not a bullet I would use or depend on, nor would I suggest to anyone to use them to harvest deer class and above animals. This decision does come from some limited experiance and some personal testing along with an abundance of written information. I have said and I will continue to say that a PB is nothing more than an extended round ball made from very soft lead to allow it to expand to the barrel. And to be honest the projectile was designed to be just that so that it could and would qualify as a cross between a round ball (with a plastic patch)and a conical (swelling to engage the barrel) + allow many states to accept it as a legal substitute for a conical.

Again, I am not a PRB shooter, so I am relaying information in my mind that I read from various sources, but the points are: 1)if you are shooting PRB's from a ML you must make adjustments in how you shoot.... not to say that the PRB is not leathal if you in the correct manner. 2) if you are using a lead PRB or lead conical the wise person will go bigger than a normal jacketedbullet.

Phil, I belive I do have some personal experiance with the PowerBelt, all be it limited, but enough to feel that a lot of the negative stories that i hear about the PB could be true and therefor I choose to use a different projectile. Idaho has forced my hand a bit also I had/have to make a decision about which projectile to use during the short ML season we have in my area. It would be easy to choose and use the easy loading PB, but becuase of my personal feeling I have chose to go to, what i feel, isa veryheavy conical. I feel i can push it along a little harder than normal and becuse of it's shear size not worry about the projectile blowing up or deflecting, it will hit and penetrate.

Lastly, I do not think I would tell anyone to condemm the bullet, because of my personal experiance. As I have said I would not suggest or recommend it for hunting. I have recommended it as a simple way to get started shooting a ML - it is the easiest projectile to load, along with pellets, and I would not recommend them either once you gain the experiance to use loose powder.

In this, FG is a great example, he beleives in the projectile and it works for him why would I tell him he is wrong, and I haven't, it is his choice just as it is my best friends choice, although if either of them would ask me it would not be my suggestion for a reliable over time bullet.

I happen to think that a Nosler Partition, followed by a Speer Gold Dot (because of costs) are the best bullets on the market for harvesting game... So am I saying the Barnes is not a good bullet, not at all but I do not have any experiance with them and all the information I have read about them has been positive. Still I would recommend the Nosler partition.

WAAAAY to much space taken up by this flap so let us go each others way, after all that is what we would do anyway...

U no whut? Ah don' ockupie ne hi posichun o morality er nuttin butt ah'z thankun mite b muh opinion bout most thangz iz jest dat - muh opinion. Dat don' give spatial privalege ta me ner ne1 an it'z rite stupud ta thank udderwize.

Ah'm thankun dem Western boyz an ol RC mite wanna push dem big ol slugs hard cos dey mite shoot sumpin bigger'n a lil whitetail dear lak whut ah shoot at sumtimez (runnin an frum datruck winder cos ah'll shoot nethang). An dat'z ok wit me (butt ah steel thank dey iz jest gluttunus fer punishmunt).

Ah'z also thankun dat sum folk'z best b shur der saddle'z iz on tite cos dat wood b a long fall. Don' fergit ta say yer prayerz 2.

UC, take that plug outta yer mouth. You know we cant understand you when yer chewin on that plug.

UC

I understand and again the wisdom of an man (i'm thinking you are old anything beyond 40 is old accorden to my grand daughters) comes right to the point...

Sabot loader The Savage load for the 300 grain barnes original clocks at 2300fps.

Now to the powerbelts I have shot a couple elk with them 348 grain
killed em dead. In one the bullet was like a .50 cent piece, the other I only found the green skirt in the animal both were side shots right through middle of chest. I would not shoot at a large animal with a PB unless it was broadside. A deer is different they should work quite well.
I went to a White to shoot 460 conicals and they sure do penetrate
As good as my 300 weatherby with nosler partitions.
I would not have any problem shooting a 460 conical at 200 yards provided I knew the range.
Redclub

Back to the original question. I am not really sure if youHAVE to back off on powder with heavier conicals, but Ipersonallydo, for several reasons.

First, I have to admit, that I am recoil shy. I am helped a lot by a Sims recoil pad, but you put a no excuses 460 grains through with 110 grains of 777 and that packs a wallop!That means less accuracy for ME, so I back off to 80-90 grains.I can't imagine what a 500+ grain conical would feel like with a big charge.

Second, at that level (80-90 gr)you get DEVESTATING power and penetration, so in my mind why would I even think about going higher? I don't shoot past 100 yards, so trajectory is not really an issue, so there is really no need for me to go higher.

Because of these things, "can I go higher" is a nonissue with me. Just doesn't make sense for me and mine.

As to the alternate disscussion: I have shot and will probably shoot powerbelts in the future, mainly because they are about the only thing that my Omega will shoot with accuracy. However, there is a lot of bad press out there about them. I have personally heard so many stories about "failures" where the animal went 25 yards. Not a failure in my book. However, I have to believe some of it may be true. How much bad press have you heard or read about with other pure lead big bore conicals? No excuses, bull shop, T/C maxiballs, buffalo bullets,...... Maybe it is out there, but I have not heard it hardly ever.

Bottom line for me is that under certain conditions, I will continue to use powerbelts. But for the most part, if I can find another big conical with a great reputation, great terminal performance, and usually about 1/2 the price of powerbelts, I will be using them.

Lastly, when I do use a powerbelt, I will definately be using a reduced charge of powder. I just think they hold together and perform better, actually getting better penetration at reduced velocities. JMHO

Mike,

I am surprised to hear you say that. Because, you know that's the same excuse I was justifying discussing someone else's experience with T/C.But then . . .YOU convinced me that I should notdo that. So yes, I am very dissappointed to read this.

Fact is,aside from the basalt pit, you have no experience which is not vicarious. In fact, your experience seems to be the mirror imageof your friend's. He seems to be totally satisfied having used them for years and apparantly continues to use them. So what was a disaster to you seems to be complete satisfaction to him, go figure.

In any event, in just reviewing some of the past threads on the PB, its clear that the positive experiences are considerably more numerous than are the negative ones. The "negative press" coming primarily from less than a handful of individuals. So it would seem that you have chosen to rely on the minority of individuals, (sadly one of whom, considers the anusappropriate shot placement).

In any event, I would agree that the nosler bullet is better than a PB for most circumstances. Has alot of benefits in addition to its strength. Your experience with them tells me that they fly well, penetrate well, and do a good job killing game. And by the way, don't think for a minute that I didn't notice that you are very skilled marksman choosing and hitting the appropriateplacement for the shot at 170 yards.

By the way, I'm ready to move on as well.

Good day